00:00.00 bizzyweb I I made a mistake recently Dave do you ever? Do you ever have this with your wife where she's talking and she's explaining about her day and then she uses a big word and you go wait. What hey. 00:02.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb That Oh yeah. 00:13.84 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, once in a while? Yes, yeah, um. 00:16.25 bizzyweb And as you know my wife is ah is a school counselor and she was recently talking about ah neurodiversity in schools and I was like wait wait what and then I I got a primer on neurodiversity and I thought that was such a fascinating concept which again don't don't. My wife that I agreed with her but I looked up some books on it I found a great book called a hidden force unlocking the potential of neurodiversity at work and we actually have the author who's joining us today. His name is Ed Thompson he's one of the world's foremost experts in work. Place neuro inclusivity and he's the author of the book and he he runs a company called up top optimize which he's founded in 2016 welcome Ed. 01:02.98 Ed Thank you, Thank you for having me. 01:07.53 bizzyweb Let's start with the basics and and and hopefully you can help me explain to my wife why she's wrong. What is neurodiversity. 01:13.83 Ed Yeah I think we have to start here because there's a lot of misconceptions and we also see when we train companies 60 sixty 5% people say they've never even heard the term so definitely good to to start here. Neurodiversity. 01:24.65 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah. 01:30.73 Ed Means sort of what it sounds like it. It simply means that humans have different brains. There's no 1 normal brain 1 neurodiversity writer made the nice point that you can't go to a museum and see you know the normal brain in in a jar because it doesn't exist. So. 01:47.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Chair. 01:50.97 Ed Everybody's brain is wired differently. That's what neurodiversity means and because of that and sometimes people misuse this term as well. Humans are neurodiverse as a result organizations are neurodiverse your candidate pool is neurodiverse your audience and so on. Um there's no 1 normal brain I think where people get confused is how does that relate to Neuro Divergent neuro divergence and they hear terms like autistic and so on so some people within that human spectrum and again we all have a different brain. 02:18.69 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are the. 02:29.26 Ed Have an identity as what's called neurodivergent now that could be dyslexic. It could be being an Adhd and so on that comes from having a particular cluster of traits that are less common overall but have been labeled and. 02:38.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, a. 02:46.11 Ed Given a medical diagnosis really only over the last hundred years or so and today many people have reclaimed some of those terms as just being a part of their identity. You know not being a disability. All of those are typically diagnosed on negatives. It's behavioral. It's sort of what can a kid not do as well as their peers but actually I think there's this growing recognition that these are simply different brain wirings within that bigger spectrum. Um and brain wirings with great strengths as well as contextual. 03:12.71 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are you. 03:21.41 Ed Challenges and it's estimated today around 20% of people might be neuro divergent although many have never had a diagnosis and it's also very much debated. What is considered neurodivergent and and what isn't so I think the easiest way to think about this is just remember. Humans and Neurodiverse. No two brains are alike and if we recognize that in everything we do. That's the best path to including everybody. 03:47.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Absolutely well and I I want to jump in for a cycle. 03:47.71 bizzyweb Excellent. So how does it? Why does this matter in the workplace. 03:52.37 Ed I think it matters a lot I think it matters for um, a couple of reasons. First of all, we look at organizational priorities in the 2020 s interesting I was looking at a fortune 100 company yesterday looking at their annual report from last year and the first thing the Ceo was talking about was covid second thing he was talking about was human capital and the first subpoint there was diversity and inclusion. So I think. Organizations increasingly recognize how important their people are um that their people are their most expensive and and important asset and I think organizations are struggling to keep people around to attract the best talent and to maximize productivity. And innovation and innovation. We know is no joke today because of the plummeting lifespan of companies. You know companies aren't oil tankers with 60 year lifespans anymore if you're not innovating somebody else's and you're going to be disrupted so all of those things. I think come back to the fact that if people are so important. What's the one tool that we're all bringing to work every day is is our brains and it's extraordinary really that we don't learn about neurodiversity at school. We don't appreciate these differences so all of these interactions at work. 05:05.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, and. 05:20.87 Ed Um, whether it's a team looking to innovate whether it's a recruiter trying to hire and so on all of those interactions take place between people with different brains and if we're managing those interactions without. Paying any attention to neurodiversity or what we call neuroinclusion which is that kind of consideration of these differences I Don't think we can live into all those promises of being a diverse and inclusive employer. But even more than that I don't think we can meet all of those talent goals. Um, that we all, we all know every business needs. 06:15.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb This is this is great at and I should interject here that I have a neurodeverse son who wears it as a badge of honor and I think all of his friends that are in the same same kind of general crew I'll do as well they're they're all, um, very proud of their. Asperger's slash you know where wherever they are and so it feels like maybe at least among the youngest generation. That's just coming in and and getting in and out of school and entering the workforce that there's a real embracing of neuro diversions. 06:50.48 Ed Yeah, there is absolutely because I think businesses exist within their societies and so you have to see all of this together and you have to think about the kind of societal change here and again I mentioned these. 06:53.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, are you seeing that kind of in the corporate world as well where people are more accepting and I know that that's part of the point of the book but is there a good upswell right now of recognition. 07:07.56 Ed Some of these terms are are really quite recent quite recent in in in human history humans have always been neurodiverse but some of these terms are ah quite recent the terms the the medicalization of some of these differences I think has led to a focus on negatives. 07:12.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 07:24.25 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He hope. 07:26.10 Ed And I think you see that as well in culture and so one of the things I talk about in the book is where do we get these stereotypes from where do we get these stereotypes from that you know dyslexic people are ah dumb or you know autistic people are incapable and and so on or you know socially useless and. 07:38.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 07:45.50 Ed Actually culture has represented neurodiergent people in in a very kind of warped and one- dimensional way I Think if you if you don't get educated on what neurodiversity really is and then you get these kind of cultural representations. Um, it's not surprising to see how people. 07:54.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 08:05.42 Ed You know face difficulties in in the workplace. But but to your point I think that's that's all changing and actually if we talk about business I mean look at the business icons of our time and how many of them are neurodiergent and how many of them talk about the fact that it's because they're neurodiergent. 08:06.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 08:24.69 Ed They've been so successful and actually you know if you if you dig and again I talk about this in the in the book in a different chapter. You look at the top of almost any field of life whether it's you know the olympics Michael Phelps you sports Michael Jordan you know 08:33.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? or. 08:43.61 Ed Acting Tom Cruise and you know music Adam Levine I mean neurodivergent people are at the top of absolutely every field including business. So I do think it's starting to that awareness is starting to shift and it's being driven as well by neurodivergent people in organizations who've really. Been hidden and and quiet and I think often being nervous to to talk about their differences that's hugely changed over the last couple of years you now have networks. Yeah ergs one company I interviewed in the book have 400 people in their neurodiversity resource group. Saying look hey we're here and we you know we want change. We're committed to the company but but we want it to be more inclusive of people like us. 09:28.89 bizzyweb There are there positive cultural and so influences of neurodivergent people because I know I know I'm of the age that might will kind of want one of my first experiences with a neuro of divergent person and popular culture. It was Dustin Hoffman and rain man. 09:43.24 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Absolutely. 09:44.70 Ed Yeah. 09:48.70 bizzyweb Where he had this very specific The diagnosis that caused him to be the way that he was but that's not a indicative of all the people. So what is the yeah. 09:59.49 Ed Um I think it's changing as as well I think the last 5 to 10 years is probably an improvement on what's come before and you have more say Tv characters who are openly neuro diversion and shown in in a more balanced. Fashion I think it could still go beyond I I think some of these shows still lean on some of the stereotypes. But for example I mean successful very successful crime drama in Europe called the bridge and the main character I think it's swedish danish the main character. Is an autistic woman. So first of all I mean we know from our interviews autistic women at work. In fact, autistic neurodiergent people sorry in in fact, female neurodivergent people often find. Ah you know, particular. 10:43.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Is it. 10:52.14 Ed You know, even disbelief at their existing in at work. You know oh you're autistic and female didn't even know that was a thing that sort of thing and so just having a character here who's in a leadership role who's pretty female I think even that's ah, a positive if you look at what. What came before. 11:09.99 bizzyweb I I even think the the the Bbc version updated version of Sherlock Holmes that with with Benedict cumberbot is as Sherlock Holmes that he was played as neuro divergent I think if I remember correctly too. 11:25.87 Ed Not seen it. 11:29.10 bizzyweb Oh it's fantastic. It's fantastic. They're all little ah little little many many mini movies I Definitely recommend it. But what it Yeah, it's great and he you know that that was part of his his issue is that he was neurodiergent in in a way that was. 11:33.34 Ed I do like Sherlock Holmes so I should check that out. Yeah. 11:47.73 bizzyweb Elevated as thinking compared to everyone else. So. 11:48.68 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here's up read it. 11:50.33 Ed Yes, a great.. It's a great job for I mean for somebody who has ah a different way of of thinking actually um, interviewed a police officer a neurodivergent police officer for the book who wanted to stay anonymous because of. Lack of appreciation of some of these differences in his force which I think is is a sad but but quite typical thing but he was describing how his thinking style has benefited him in his in his job and he said. 1 of the things that makes him different is if there's you know Action. So Suddenly there's an incident in in a house or ah or a store. Whatever he would describe his colleagues as all getting very kind of you know, steamed up right up and at him let's let's jump in the car and you Know. He would say he would be the only one who would just have this calm analytical approach and he'd say go off to the computer and he'd figure out right? Who are these people and he'd figure out where where they probably going next because they're probably not where we think they are now and then he'd be the one to say right? check out, you know this house. 12:49.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, there. 12:56.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 13:01.74 bizzyweb Sure. 13:03.56 Ed Down this tree and lo and behold. You know there. They were so interesting. Really. 13:06.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yes, full. 13:08.19 bizzyweb I my my son I have a 9 year old son who is neurotypical but he has a neuro divergent friend whose name is Jack and Jack is the just the coolest kid and I remember the first time I met him or I think the second time I met him I I said hey Jack what are you been up to. 13:12.67 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay. 13:22.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Fascinating warmth. 13:27.63 bizzyweb And he sat down next to me and then for about 10 minutes he described everything that he did that day and and ah initially I thought um this is hilarious that he's doing this and then the longer he talked the more I realized. How personally at fault I was for thinking that because why is this behavior not normal I asked him a question to tell me what he's been up to he's telling me what he's been up to and he's genuinely happy that I'm having this conversation with him. 13:50.15 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, very little Yeah um. 14:03.80 bizzyweb So I felt really bad but also really honored at the same time. So I I learned a lot I learned a lot from Jack and now every time I see him I ask him the question hey what are you been up to and he does the same thing and it's it's it's really neat. So but but but back to back to the topic. Why do you think why has neurodiversity been overlooked. 14:17.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, who. 14:22.76 bizzyweb In in the workplace. 14:23.65 Ed I think it's partly because it's been overlooked in society again, you look at diversity and inclusion if you like the the first movement on on those topics was really in the sixty s with the civil rights. Legislation. In fact, the first enterprise resource group was in at Xerox in 64 african american employees coming together to to support each other and and advocate for their needs now the term neurodiversity wasn't coined till the late 1990 s so so around half the time d I has even been a thing. Nobody's even used the term neurodiversity and I think it's been wrongly seen as this kind of tiny niche of of disability. 15:12.32 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 15:16.32 Ed Which which as we know now is is probably wrong for for a couple of reasons wrong because many neurodivergent people don't consider their Neuro differences at a disability and and wrong because actually this may be 20% of of people. So I think that's part of it I think the other part is that the. Symptoms of what I would call Non-neuroinclusivity. So an organization as most of the organizations we work with are in a similar state when they start. They're super committed to people diversity and so when they recognize this stuff. Matters. They appreciate diversity of thought they realized. 15:39.77 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Is it. 15:52.67 Ed That's how they're going to innovate and build stronger organizations but they've never done anything on this. So. It's kind of a blind spot and partly. It's a blind spot because a lot of the issues are hidden. So when we talk to people who are neurodivergent they describe being excluded in hiring processes because. You know they're not making eye contact or they're speaking with a flat effort so people don't think they're interested or they're struggling with a psychometric test that's confusing or they're struggling with ah a timed application form that's poorly formatted and stressful because it says you've only got 2 minutes left 16:26.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, a. 16:27.56 Ed You know we're we're hemorrhaging talent there but nobody realizes and it's one of the great sort of um I think challenges for us to get across to organizations is that you're You're not always hiring the best people. 16:31.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, sure right. 16:43.47 Ed And it's very very difficult to say that to somebody who's in an organization themselves because surprise surprise they think well if they hired me they must be doing a pretty good job and these processes have got to be working fine. That's not true and even within the Workforce. We know. Organizations by definition are neurodiverse already albeit they could probably be more so we hear lots of stories of people masking which means pretending not to be neurotypical which can be of course exhausting in terms of your productivity and so On. You don't get the support. You need You don't get the accommodations. You need you have to deal with your colleagues and so on and not catering to your preferences and then we hear all sorts of issues and this is the only bit that kind of bubbles above the surface where people do disclose often. They are met with. 17:31.11 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 17:37.78 Ed Disbelief Cynicism ignorance and so on I mean I've heard every story from you know oh I'm sorry or autistic That means you've got a short lifespan I mean nonsense. But that's that's the sort of thing people have to deal with so you get this vicious cycle where people don't disclose. 17:46.66 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah. 17:56.67 Ed And actually 90% of people don't tonight we talk about trying to bring your full self to work 90% of 20% aren't doing that because they don't feel comfortable so it really is a sort of bubbling volcano and occasionally we'll we'll talk to an organization who says look. We had an incident. We had conflict with a manager we had somebody leave and so on so you know I think high turnover is is probably also correlated to this. You look at why people leave companies. It's really interesting. It's often. My manager doesn't understand me my my. Teammates don't understand me I don't feel comfortable in the environment. So. It's this real I think saw that's often overlooked for for all those reasons and and that's something we want to help correct right. 18:42.65 bizzyweb And that's primarily the work you do at optimize tell us more about how how that happens. 18:44.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And sure. 18:49.88 Ed Well, the background which is probably helpful as well. I I rather to my surprise found myself doing people and diversity work at a tech company in London surprised because I'd always just. Done commercial stuff up to that point. But I really saw they say these days hr priorities have become Ceo priorities and I really saw that firsthand because my boss who was the Ceo what were the things that were keeping him up at night. We can't hire fast enough. Everybody sort of looks the same thinks the same. You know this isn't the twenty first century workforce that we need so I got involved in apprenticeships and other ways of of trying to change that and I was really struck by the impact not just on. You could always. You can always take an individual and say you know we've given them a chance isn't that a great human interest story. Sure. 19:28.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are. 19:46.28 Ed But I was really interested in the impact on the business because we'd done this from a very strategic people perspective and you could see this organization being energized by different talent different perspectives and also just by the kind of social. 19:50.46 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Not just of you. 20:02.72 Ed Ethos that the organization was displaying and actually you know putting money behind. Um so I was interested in that I wanted to explore that more and I'd had a traumatic brain injury and I have neurodivergent family and sort of ended up putting 2 and 2 together and thinking. Well what about neurodiversity and this was. Very very very early in what's now thought of as this kind of neurodiversity at work movement but really wanted to commit to helping organizations understand this and ultimately helping them embrace every type of thinker and that's our mission that's been our mission from the beginning and um and the same today. So. We started supporting organizations like apmicrosoftjpmorgan as they tried very small what were called autism hiring programs. So this all started when these big tech employers. You don't think of banks as tech employers. But they've got huge tech teams. Um. Struggling to find tech talent and thought probably you know to your point about rain man. There's this kind of cultural correlation with with autism and you know let's go find. Let's go find autistic people because they could be really good at this. Um I think we felt all the time that. Ultimately, that's okay, as a starting point but but organizations actually really leaning into this topic. That's about how do we all work together every day that's ah, a collaboration thing as much as it is or more than it is ah a hiring thing. So. 21:34.71 Ed Today again, we take organizations that are generally committed to their people committed to diversity committed to innovation. They've started to hear about this term. They've started to realize they don't know much about it. They want to change that we've built a whole bunch of stuff that that can help them along that journey. 21:41.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are. 21:54.79 bizzyweb What's the business case for creating a neurodiversity hiring practice and I think to me it's painfully obvious that if you're if you're going to be. 22:06.47 Ed Um. 22:08.21 bizzyweb Ah, to me as a leader I think the the most important thing in hiring is somebody who doesn't think the way that you do so to me. Ah this This isn't this is kind of a layout. Of course you should do this but not everybody thinks like I do and that they want to have people who are more universal in their thinking so walk us through what. Why should organizations do this and especially in the neurodiversity category. 22:29.66 Ed Yeah I think we we we probably. We did some interviews with managers of of course many of whom are also hiring managers in corporate America a few years ago and we asked them. You know, do you know anything about neurodiversity and of course most of them say no never heard of it. But then we asked them about diversity of thought and the idea of having different perspectives in their team to help solve their problems and so on and they said yes, that's what I want I know that's what I need That's what I want I don't always know how to get it. 23:02.99 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, me. 23:05.83 Ed I think there's a really interesting thing with business as a whole today because of that shrinking um corporate lifespan that every organization has that initial startup phase which is very kind of idea based. But then you go into this kind of process phase and you just need. 23:16.91 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You. 23:25.12 Ed You know the right shape cog in the right shape hole. But at some point that breaks down especially with this pace of change. You can't just be a process organization. So how are we going to build ah in that diversity of thought that can help us to innovate because yes we have Ai and so on but look. 23:41.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 23:42.61 Ed Where's innovation coming from innovation is coming from human brains getting together with different perspectives. Um, and so on. So I think the case for a hiring program is to bring in talent that you're excluding I think there's a a bigger case to just make sure that you're hiring practices. Don't exclude the 20% of people that includes the Richard Branson's the elon musks the Steve Jobs the barbara corcorans the Kevin o'learys because I think it's pretty obvious that people like that are going to add something to your team. 24:20.41 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 24:31.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I think it definitely is a goal and and if if we can get companies to want to hire neuro divergence then there's. 1 more step that we probably need to do and that's to figure out how to maximize their input or to give them the runway in order to soar right? So how do? how do you foster that culture that embraces. Neuro Divergence you know whether it's autistic dyslexic adh d because everybody has special. You know everybody has different needs. But how do you foster that culture that accepts and lets people do what they need to in order to contribute to the company. 25:07.93 Ed Yeah I think that you you need really everybody in the organization. Um, not just recruiters not just managers not just senior leaders. Everybody to have a little bit of a pivot in their thinking and their understanding of what. Work and what collaboration means because I think if you haven't been taught about neurodiversity and you're having all these interactions just like the 3 of us are here and you're not doing it with neurodiversity in mind, you're not approaching say a meeting or an interview or a sales presentation thing. You look. I'm bringing my own brain wiring my own way of processing information my own preferences to this. But so's everybody else and theirs aren't the same as mine if you know if we're not doing that. Um, we know we're missing out. But if we can pivot people to appreciating that I think that's where our training starts. It's just that. 26:01.43 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 26:03.42 Ed Fundamental appreciation of the neurodiverse reality in which we will work good things start to happen then it's okay, well what do we do about it and and to a point Dave look everybody is different so this is not about having a kind of menu for autistic people and a menu for dyslexia people and so on it's. Certainly not about waiting for people to put their hand up because as I said look 90% of people for for many good reasons. Don't typically want to share that they're neurodiersion off the bat. So what we preach if you like is the application of what's called universal design. 26:26.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 26:35.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 26:41.56 Ed Which means essentially proactive measures proactive steps to recognize the fact that I may not know how everybody thinks in my team. Maybe they don't know. Maybe they don't have a conscious identity but the 1 thing I know is they're not the same and they're not the same as me. So what can I do off the bat. 26:45.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In. 27:01.52 Ed To appreciate that whether it's asking them how they like to communicate problem solve surfacing my own preferences having some sensitivity around environments How we run meetings and so on all of that proactive doesn't matter if I've got someone who's put the hand up and said by the way. 27:07.53 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 27:19.44 Ed Head I'm autistic and I need this a whole load of stuff we can all do off the bat that just changes the nature of our team Really it unlocks this empathy and compassion that we all have and we're just kind of locking up. 27:31.30 bizzyweb At. 27:34.33 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 27:34.69 Ed Yeah. 27:39.39 bizzyweb I want to ask what I think is potentially a stupid question then if follow it up. Follow it up with a good one. Can you ask people in in ah in a hiring practice. Let's say I'm interviewing you at can I ask you if you're Neuro Divergent 27:40.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 27:45.45 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I Love lot empathy. Yeah and and empathy and curiosity. Probably how can that go. 27:49.90 Ed No, you shouldn't and and you can't legally and I think there's good reasons for that in terms of you know, respecting people. The the people's privacy and and and obviously to some extent this being linked with a ah medical identity given the the medicalization of of some of these terms so you can't but. I think more important I don't think that should be your aspiration. We often have to coach companies coach leaders out of this idea of how do I know who everybody is there's this There's this I think. Wish to say off if I just knew that that person was an Adhd and that person was dyslexic I I sort of know how to help them and and really, that's so I think a ah fruitless pursuit. Um, again because if so many people don't want to share this. And the other complexity is many many people you think about diagnoses being costing thousands of dollars many people have never had access to to that service particularly women particularly people from ethnic minorities. So the best place to start is again. Know everybody thinks differently. They're likely people who are neurodivergent in the team some may want to share this. Some may not what can we do to embrace that muddy picture rather than trying to have this kind of false clarity and we we work with one organization. In fact, we didn't work with them and here's why. 29:03.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Fifth. 29:14.78 Ed Because they said they' done a survey and they had about thousand people and they said we've got 3 people who say they're Neuro a divergent. So it's not really a priority I think that's 3 29:20.20 bizzyweb Yeah, well I won't be clear I I fully agree and wholeheartedly admit that but that that you shouldn't ask people that kind of thing but I asked that course to set up the next question I I wanted to ask which is. 29:35.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Fifty fifty 29:38.49 bizzyweb If I'm in an interview setting hypothetically and somebody is at behaviorally for instance, acting in a way that is ah is different So one of the things you mentioned is not not really making eye contact is how can I. 29:55.10 bizzyweb Ah, flesh out with ah the difference between somebody who's Neuro divergent or just bad at interviewing because I think that if they you're just bad at interviewing. That's a whole different thing. But if you're if you're if there's a particular reason for it then. That's the first step I think in taking advantage of learning about what this person's strengths are and how to maximize them in in the hiring process. 30:21.35 Ed I Think the first thing I'd say is why does it matter if they're good or bad at interviewing So I would I would rewind to what is the Job. We're actually hiring this person to do and I think. People don't do this and it's it's ah it's a big theme of recruitment at the moment. Intentional recruiting start with the outcomes what you actually want to get done and then what are the skills and experiences that are needed for those outcomes and a lot of the time in many roles. For example. 30:48.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah, yeah. 30:53.64 Ed You don't need excellent communication skills or if you do you need them in 1 dimension but not other dimensions and yet people will hire right from the beginning right before interviews and say oh of course we need excellent communication because we just sort of put that on all our job descriptions. So. I think that's the that's 1 thing and I think it's then from that intentionality having a very clear understanding of the role and purpose of interviews before you even start? What are we measuring here. Um, and and to what extent. 31:14.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Friend. 31:28.28 Ed Do We actually need somebody to be good at the sort of social performance under pressure that an interview is and some people aren't good at it. Some people are um, ah if you're hiring for a television presenter that's probably ah, a pretty good way to do it If You're not. Um, there's probably ways alternative Assessments. You can consider to to complement the interview and then I think that intentional kind of list allows you to answer your question. You know I think it allows you to have questions. Ah, that really dig into some of those skills that dig into some of the personal Attributes. You're looking for and as much as Possible. You go on people's words, Um, and you don't go on how they present and it's a real.. It's a real I mean interviews are. 32:15.99 Ed Ah, Bias mind field right? and I find it fascinating and I do this myself when we're hiring and it's amazing How you catch yourself So you're hiring for a role and then you pause and think right was my mental picture of this kind of candidate. 32:16.19 bizzyweb Absolutely. 32:23.84 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, a. 32:31.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Other. 32:35.43 Ed And you always have one and it's it's often you know in my case as a white person. It's often sort of you know a white person in their late twenty s something I think hold up white. Why is that my mental picture that's there's absolutely no reason why this person should be of this age of this ethnicity of this gender. Um. And a nice thing I like to to recommend with interviewers this as as a tip is to acknowledge how people present and and maybe even record it but to use that term present right? So Dave I'm interviewing you I'm going to say I'm going to record your answers but I'm also good to note presents as. 33:01.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Friend. 33:13.50 Ed Highly socially competent or presents as less so doesn't matter. But it's I'm I'm I'm putting it in a box and I'm I'm recognizing it and I'm not allowing it to kind of warp some of my judgments and just with that snap thing of like oh you, you know. 33:19.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 33:30.53 Ed You're talking in a certain way so you probably don't care that much. 33:32.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are. 33:38.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Color. Yeah. 33:46.24 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb If you if you do know specific buckets that people are in so you know perhaps an adh D or an autistic person. Are there specific roles or how do how do you capture the best potential contribution of those people like are are there specific roles that are better for different kinds of Neuro divergent personalities. 34:05.00 Ed Well being very open here we had in our first e-learning we ever did We had a module called suitable roles and we didn't say you know autistic people are good at this and you know didn think some people get that. But but we. But we alluded to what might be some commonalities and we felt that our customers would be interested in that. But honestly as we interviewed more people who are Neurodivergent. You realize this stuff doesn't really stand up and actually far more people buck the stereotypes than. 34:29.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, sure. 34:37.81 Ed Conform to them and we would talk to many autistic people who said, look I'm hearing about all this stuff about Autism and Tech I'm not that techy I'm not a web developer. You know I'm a children's Librarian and you know yes, it's I find it sort of exhausting but actually I love interacting with people and so I think it's. I Know it's probably not.. It's an annoying answer. But I think you have to acknowledge that you know the right person with of whatever and your identity could be the right person for for any role, but it's also about as as you said, having that kind of curiosity with people. 35:03.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 35:13.94 Ed To understand you know to what extent does the role that they're in if they're working for you to what extent does that role match their particular strengths. Um I get asked ah a similar question a lot which is you know right? working from home Covid you know is that good or bad for Neuro divergent people and it's. 35:23.45 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 35:27.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, sure. 35:32.90 Ed Again, it's sort of an impossible question because somebody's neurodivergence is just one part of their bigger identity I have a friend who's autistic. He's in his 20 s some people would think oh of course he loves working from homes. He's not social. Well he's actually incredibly social. He's also in his twenty s it says boring working from home. 35:36.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure. 35:52.40 Ed Right? And somebody else might actually you know hate the sensory environment at work. But they might be you know they might be in a huge tiff with their husband and think god if I get to go out of the house for 8 hours a day. Fantastic. So. 36:02.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 36:08.38 Ed You know you can't really draw the lines. It's about curiosity David as you said it's about flexibility I think the last thing with suitable roles sorry to labor the point but it's also really important not to draw. 36:12.86 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure. 36:20.59 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 36:21.52 Ed Light Not to say that you know that role could never suit somebody like this and that's a misconception we hear? No, we couldn't have anybody like that here they wouldn't cope or you know a lot of the time people thinking that neurodivergent people couldn't be good managers. 36:27.59 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 36:29.81 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Thus at. 36:37.47 Ed Which is also nonsense some neurodiergent people might not want that kind of reward my parents were teachers they were not neurodivergent but they didn't like the types of task that came with management just didn't suit them. 36:42.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 36:50.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 36:52.44 Ed And people want alternative rewards but some neurodivergent people make fantastic managers partly because they have this empathy and curiosity to however everybody thinks that every manager should have but doesn't. 36:57.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 37:07.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, the. 37:07.54 bizzyweb I can remember when years and years ago I was a recruiter and one of the things that I got told very early on in my career was ah that if you find somebody who's really good at Data entry. That person is like gold because everybody thinks they can do data entry but the person who's really good at it has a very specific set of skills. They do not want to talk to people. They want to be given a set of work and then they and to be left alone. And that that person will excel in that role and so one of the things I learned very early in my career was everything is sort of flat when you have a role that needs to be filled you try and find the best person to fill it and and I think that that certainly applies here. So. As a follow up to me asking too long of a question at what what are some of the consequences of not ah of ignoring this this kind of way of thinking of neurodiversity. 38:02.17 Ed Are. 38:14.15 Ed Yeah, as as I mentioned I think it's what what are our goals when it comes to people attracting the best talent it's keeping them around that's where we talk in ah hr about well-being belonging and so on these are not buzzwords these are. The solutions to 1 in 4 corporate employees leaving voluntarily every year perhaps one in 3 that that is a real retention crisis top number. 38:35.71 bizzyweb 1 will say that again. That's ah, that's an important statistic that needs to be repeated. 38:40.67 Ed Yeah, and turnover is very expensive I mean it's no, that's no joke having unfilled positions is expensive in terms of productivity replacing people as expensive particularly senior people so there is a real kind of financial bleed to this stuff and I think the bigger thing we talked about innovation. So what's the ultimate thing. 38:50.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In here. 38:58.59 Ed Track people keep them but then make the best of them again. I don't think you can make the best of your team If. You don't appreciate the way that they all want to think and again we've seen this. Because we've seen collaboration Improve. We've seen Innovative Outcomes emerge where we have teams where we respect these differences and we allow everybody to contribute to their best. 39:27.90 bizzyweb What? Ah along the lines of we we're talking about best fits are there do different Neuro Diversgent communities thrive in in in different workspaces or certain workspaces I should say. 39:38.47 Ed Now again I think it's very it's it's really too varied to to say that but I think it's interesting. You look at the journey of of one company that started with an autism hiring program hiring tech people. And within a year or 2 they'd hired into 22 different roles so that I think tells you and and it's a credit to them that they had that recognition that actually if we're hiring from one community or another there are all sorts of different things that that people can do. But. 39:59.26 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, it. 40:11.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, who. 40:14.67 Ed I would I would encourage people to to think of this not as you know here are people on the fringes of society who who who need a chance and you know make maybe I could give them a chance that something of thing I would think of this again as look this is 20% of people who who who think in a particularly different way. 40:15.92 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, he. 40:33.60 Ed This is your clients. This is your audience. This is your team. This might be your manager. This is much more close to home. Um, and and and you know to consider it in in everything they do again. 40:43.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 40:48.17 bizzyweb Um, ah tell us about the book. 40:48.90 Ed Yeah, so the book came out this year. It's really a capturing of of some of the journey that that I had building the company and all the people I've met and everything I've I've seen along that journey. And it's really been fascinating to be part of this new movement and and and to see the energy of that and then to see the impact on individuals who find that suddenly their organizations the first one they've ever worked in that said, hey we care about people like you or it's the first one that's actually in the hiring process. Allowed them to shine and and and and and given them a chance and one of the big motivators actually to write in the book was the response that we've seen to the training that we've done in organizations. It's often quite emotional because you have people saying. 41:35.72 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 41:44.31 Ed I'm so glad we're doing this I'm so proud of my organization for doing this. This is really changing my experience but we also see a really powerful response from the cynics if you like it's the people who said, what's this got to do with me and sometimes they admit this. And they say I didn't know what this had to do with me but it's the best thing I've heard in leadership in 20 years because I hadn't been thinking about the fact that my team thinks differently and now I have all these tools for hiring for collaboration and so on to to get more out of people and we know how important that is and. I just think that's something quite special happening. Really I think there's a lot of there's a lot of people doing good work training organizations. But I don't think they're getting a response like that and I thought that was something to to share with the world. So it was actually on a. Socially distanced walk at the beginning of covid and I said to my wife gosh the world's going mad. Maybe I'll have some time to write that book I've been talking about and three years later 2023 here it is 42:36.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 42:50.72 bizzyweb Where could we find the book. 42:52.60 Ed Yeah, a hidden force unlocking the potential of neurodiversity at work. It's on Amazon and other book outlets currently paperback and ebook shortly hardcover and audiobook as well. 43:01.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I Love it. Wow. 43:13.28 Ed Yeah, link to it there. But I think that's going to take you to Amazon probably as well. 43:18.52 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 43:19.77 bizzyweb Ah, Ed any final thoughts any last things that you want to give our listeners things they need to be thinking about if they're considering or whether or not they should spend time thinking about this because I I think I live in a very different world than a lot of people in that I I I've appreciated all of this. 43:22.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Fantastic and I believe it's available from your website at optimize.com as well. Correct good sure. 43:39.57 bizzyweb In in how people think because in my job in business development everybody thinks differently. So my job is to try and figure out how you're thinking and match match up with you. But um, this has been such a fascinating conversation I you have any last last last licks that you. 43:56.37 Ed Yeah, thank you both for for having me. It's been fun I would say that it's it. You know this is this stuff is coming I don't think you can you can bury yourself under under a rock from it nor hopefully I've argued. Should you. 43:56.92 bizzyweb Think people should know. 44:02.77 bizzyweb Um, awesome. 44:06.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are. 44:13.22 Ed This is changing the diagnostic rates of young people. The expectations of the workforce as a whole and I think to some extent as relates to inclusivity and as relates to neuroinclusivity are skyrocketing. We're hearing people in organizations we work with saying. Never going to go and work with a company that isn't taking this seriously you know why would I it's such a difference in an organization where we have this sensitivity to each other and how we will work versus 1 where the way the manager works is how we will work and everybody's scared to speak up and say hey what about me actually I'd like to do something different. So. Um I think it's a big risk to um to just assume that the way you're doing things at the moment when it comes to this topic is right I think the customers we work with recognize that's not the case and they have the foresight to see that and to want to change it. 45:05.63 bizzyweb A hidden force available on Amazon now and and if people are looking for you. They can find you on optimize.com as well. 45:13.60 Ed Yeah, absolutely and feel free to I was like to give my personal email as well. If you want to reach out to me personally, it's Ed Dot Thompson with a p at optimize UPT I m I z dot com 45:26.90 bizzyweb At Thank you so much for joining us. 45:28.53 Ed Um, pleasure. Thank you for having me. 45:40.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Thank you Ed.