00:00.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So all her. 00:00.00 Eric Girard I didn't know who this person was I didn't understand what was going on and I never heard from them again when I after I did the podcast so I have no idea what happened. 00:08.85 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb But that's awesome. 00:13.59 bizzyweb Ah I have a friend of mine. A very good friend of mine who lives in Nigeria and she likes to pretend that she lives out in the Bush and that you know she lives in a hut because that for whatever reason she just thinks it's funny. But I once Google earth. 00:16.80 Eric Girard Are. 00:23.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 50 00:29.22 bizzyweb Where she lives and she's 2 blocks from a Nike store. So cool. Ah well I think the first thing that I really want to I want I want to ask you Eric is um how ah how does one go about writing a book when. 00:30.67 Eric Girard Oh. 00:32.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb There you go? Yeah, um. 00:48.55 bizzyweb Because we've had a number of authors on the podcast before and what prompts you to say man I Really want to write a bunch of this down and sell it. 00:55.59 Eric Girard It was the fact that these concepts had been bouncing around in my head for years literally years and the impetus actually came from a guy I was pitching business to and he just looks at me. He's like why haven't you written a book. I'm like ah I don't know I haven't really thought of it I don't know so I didn't get that gig but that comment stuck with me like I think it was a throwaway but it stuck with me and I'm like well why don't I write a book and you know like what I've got to say is going to be helpful to folks. it's fundamental It's it's not it's not 01:22.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb O. 01:26.15 bizzyweb You know. 01:34.65 Eric Girard You know, earthshattering you know, bleeding edge stuff but it's fundamental and a lot of people need it. So there's an opportunity here to be helpful to a lot of folks and so I just thought well shoot let's go and so I set aside an hour a day for like six months and just wrote in little chunks every day I didn't I didn't you know, go away in a writer's retreat or anything I just started going and got the manuscript done and that was that was really cool and then I I handed it over to a friend who's an editor. 01:53.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 02:06.15 Eric Girard And he made some tweaks and changes to it and then it went to another editor. Another friend who is a ah very well-published author and editor and she just turned it into something that was like spectacular and I'm like hey this has got legs like this could go somewhere. 02:20.37 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Cool photography here. 02:22.16 Eric Girard So was it was discovering. It was unpeeling an onion discovering as I went so I still can't believe that it did as well as it did. It's it's ah it's amazing to me I'm very grateful. 02:24.63 bizzyweb Awesome. 02:31.62 bizzyweb The book is is lead like a pro the essential guide for new managers and I think one of the things that I think is just so fascinating about your whole Enterprise Eric is that you really do focus on people's transition into management and. 02:36.12 Eric Girard M. 02:37.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Cool. 02:46.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 02:49.88 bizzyweb How they've grown up into the next step of their lives where they are responsible for more things they are responsible for more people and I I I remember there was a time in my life where I really wanted to be a manager and then when when I became manager is like whoa I don't know. No thank you. 02:59.86 Eric Girard Um. 03:06.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb If. 03:08.54 bizzyweb Let me go back to the other thing. So what? what are some of the characteristics that make people suddenly rise to the to the level of management I would imagine circumstances one but what are some of the others. 03:22.84 Eric Girard Well circumstance I think is a big one and that's what I saw happen around me in Silicon Valley was that people were tapped to be promoted because they were the best trainer the best instructional design or the best fill in the blank and I saw. In my companies I saw the best engineers being pulled out and promoted and just because you're a great individual contributor does not mean you're going to be any good at managing and leading people it it means that you're really good at your craft which is excellent and some folks believe and I think mistakenly that the only way up. 03:47.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 03:58.40 Eric Girard Is to transition into people management into leadership and they don't They don't realize that there are other ways to advance and earn more money and have more responsibility. They don't involve leading people. So I'm talking primarily to those folks who are manager curious. You know, maybe interested in it. 04:14.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb That. 04:16.34 Eric Girard Or maybe they maybe they just got promoted and they're like oh geez what does this actually entail. Um, and that's my primary audience is you're just on the cusp of being promoted or you just got promoted. And then there are also those folks who have been managing you know who are kind of a de facto manager for years and never received any training and so the book kind of parachutes in and says hey you might have been doing this for 3 5 10 years let's fill in some gaps for you. And and help you learn how to delegate more effectively set goals provide coaching and feedback in a way that works so that you don't torture your teams because it it happened to me like I was I was on a team of 3 people in Silicon Valley and my boss came to me and said hey you expressed interest in management. Here you go you get to lead your team and I was like great I'll do it and then they said okay and by the way one of your team members says him and a problem and I want them gone. So so I got sandbagged and right away I had to to performance manage somebody. 05:07.91 bizzyweb Um. 05:12.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh oh yeah. 05:21.00 Eric Girard Out of the organization and it was just a nightmare just an absolute nightmare. So if I had had a book like this that really explained here's what to expect and if I'd gone through a course I'm building a course based on the book if I'd gone through a course like this I would have been like you know. Okay now I'm prepared I'm still interested but now I'm prepared versus the on. 05:23.28 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb From here. 05:40.92 Eric Girard That I got when I started. 05:41.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Got it. 05:41.46 bizzyweb Well it it's and I know Dave's got a question I want to make sure that I let him jump in but you don't have a training training course you've got what almost two dozen yeah 05:51.18 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Like 60 right? Oh yeah. 05:55.14 Eric Girard Ah, no I've got about 20 courses. So the one that I'm building now is going to be named after the book. So it'll it'll be called lead like a pro and it's it's going to. It's going to cruise through the same topics as the book. 05:57.32 bizzyweb What are some of the courses. 06:04.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Nice. 06:11.64 Eric Girard Um, other courses include things like managing teams. Um I'm certified in disk which is a work styles preferences inventory I'm certified in situational leadership sl 2 um I've had courses on time management and prioritization change management is big for me. So. Kind of the the stuff that a new or mildly experienced manager needs in order to run a team. Well, that's where I focus. 06:37.33 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Got it and so as as you came up and I think you already kind of gave us a little bit of the the background on why but you know your experience as a brand new manager. All of a sudden hey you're you're in the fire. I had a similar experience when I was just starting at 1 of the big banks in in the country that um, ah, they threw me into management and they had a person immediately that basically just took a whole ton of time off and it was an hr concern. And she she just started making up things on why she couldn't be there and she was a good friend of mine which is which is very weird but I I found myself in that struggle. So as a brand new manager I agree it would have been amazing to have proper tools are there other. 07:11.43 Eric Girard Um. 07:28.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Reasons to get management training as soon as possible in the management's lifecycle. 07:34.10 Eric Girard Yeah, I'd say that that the biggest thing is employee satisfaction. You know your your employee's experience at work. 1 of the things I like to say is that as a as a manager you kind of define reality for your employees you set the tone. Ah, leadership is about going first and if you lead the way holding that banner with attitudes that are unhelpful with with techniques that aren't helpful then you're going to affect everybody behind you your entire team. They're not going to perform well they're not going be happy at work. They're gonna they're going to quiet. Quietly quit or or loudly quit and it's going to be a real problem for the organization. So if you're a great leader and you understand how to do do things like delegate and set goals and provide feedback and coach. 08:22.84 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 08:27.35 Eric Girard And do that Well and do that kindly and with empathy then you're going to have a team that wants to overperform and you're go have a team that knocks out of the park and really impresses your boss and the people above you and you're gonna get noticed and that's that's going to be good for you. It's going to be. 08:40.93 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 08:45.86 Eric Girard Good for your team members and it's going to be good for the organization and so there's there's just lots of roi for learning how to lead and manage. Well. 08:53.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I suppose just the the natural bent of most management is to just throw them in especially when you're brand new or you're young in the management world. But you're you're right I mean there's so many opportunities to really. Grow fast if you have the right training in mind whereas if you just kind of fumble around in the woods. It's just wasting everybody's time I Completely agree. That's great. 09:20.92 Eric Girard Yep, yeah, absolutely yeah. 09:21.89 bizzyweb 1 of the things I love about you. Eric is is on your on your website and I'm gonna quote this because I think it's I think it's awesome is it's like the first thing on your on your website it says Eric Gerard was once a new poorly prepared manager he was promoted to lead his former teammates and he did. Everything wrong which I just love because you you're you're owning that and and using it as a tool to help people grow. So what are some of the things that to use the old Bob Seeger line what do you wish you didn't know now that you didn't know then. 10:00.30 Eric Girard Um, well I already told the origin story of how I got sandbagged and and and thrown in what I wish I had done was ignored My boss who said I want you to manage this person out I wish I had said hang on a sec. Let me. 10:03.18 bizzyweb Yeah. 10:15.36 Eric Girard Let me start fresh with this team and see what I can do and I wish I had done what I write about now which is let's talk about getting to know each other really well and let me make that transition from individual contributor to manager you know that you know being an excellent doer. Being an excellent leader which is an entirely different set of skills. So There's a fantastic Book. What got you here won't get you there. It won't you know, just because I was a great program. Manager does not mean I was a great leader So I needed to make that transition and I didn't really do it. Learning how to set goals with the team. Okay, you're responsible for this, you're responsible for this I'm responsible for that and doing it in a transparent way would have helped an awful lot delegating well would have been really useful I didn't really delegate I hung on to a lot of stuff. Um. Providing feedback in a kind forthright way Bene brown says that clear is kind unclear is unkind I I gave feedback but it was so nitpicky and so granular and so petty I'm ashamed to think about some things that I said you know. 11:16.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 11:24.35 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You know if. 11:28.15 Eric Girard Like I can't believe I did that but you know I was under tremendous stress and didn't really know any better and so I just did what I could and I really wish that I had taken time to develop myself first. Um before or Ben developed before I I jumped into that role. 11:46.84 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Perfect. Well, that's that's so important on why things for for managers as their is are coming down to to really get their ground under. Um I think one of the things as I experience my new management role. And you know it sounds like for you as well you you just didn't really have proper goals and I know I didn't for sure they werere just like oh yeah, just go go do this Thing. So Can you explain like how when you're working with a new manager or you know in in the book. How how is goal setting like. Ah, core start and you know is there is there a space or a framework that you use when goal setting if you're a new manager. 12:31.48 Eric Girard Oh yeah I use smart goals which are very common. The framework's been around for forever. Um I also touch on ok rs John door' KR's framework. Um, but I like smart goals because it's well-estabished and it's simple. It's easy. 12:33.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, yeah. 12:49.10 Eric Girard So a smart. So first off a good goal defines 4 things a good goal should define define who does what how much and by when and then a good goal is also smart. It's specific. It's measurable. It's achievable or it's aligned. It's relevant and it's time-bound. So there's ah, there's a timeline for this thing and so if you spend some time putting together. Good smart goals with your team and what I would suggest is you know, rather than as you and rather than as the manager coming down from on high saying here are your goals which I think is a huge mistake. Get the team together if you can physically and if you can't virtually via Zoom and use some version of post-it notes and sharpies so either literally post-it notes and sharpies and a blank wall in a conference room or um, a murrow board or a jam board or something like that and say okay. 13:33.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 13:45.43 Eric Girard Everybody write one goal per post it and stick it up on the board so that everybody else can see it and just go in this first round we're just going to brainstorm so just barf out ideas just get them up on the board and after the the board is covered. 13:50.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure. 14:00.44 Eric Girard Then you start to bucket them and put them into into groups where they seem to go together then you start to ask questions and and clarify and maybe poke and prod a little bit but that first round is all about just generating ideas then you start to get bucketed. You clarify them, you take out you take out duplicates and things like that and then you say okay now let's get these things assigned grab the goals that make sense for your role and everybody grabs their goals and then you as the manager you all take a gallery walk and take a look and see who's got what. 14:20.56 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Revolt. 14:33.80 Eric Girard And then you as the manager have the prerogative to say okay, you know what? um trigger of you've got 7 goals and Dave you've got 4 so trick of I'm going to take some of your goals and move them over a little bit that's your prerogative as a manager but everybody sees what everybody else is doing. 14:39.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Culture. 14:51.16 Eric Girard And you get buy in because it's all transparent. It's not done in secret and I think that that is a huge component of what makes that process work is you know people get a chance to poke and prod and ask questions and you don't end the process until everybody's bought in and then you go. And and you're ready to go because I know what you're up to I know what trigger is up to I'm ready to go. 15:11.32 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Me. 15:18.84 bizzyweb Well, you guys have been so good at sharing your management stories I know when I got pushed into management. Um, it was by a guy who was ah a great mentor and it was a deserved promotion and I I became assistant manager under him and then that was on a tuesday. And on Friday he quit and so then I was the man and I had no concept of anything and within about a month 1 of my employees who was a woman I remember this very distinctly. She had worn the same outfit three days in a row. 15:36.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh yeah. 15:53.51 bizzyweb And people were commenting on it and so I I had a conversation with her about it and Eric just like you said I completely regret it I should have handled it completely differently. There was any number of plausible explanations really I should not have talked to her about it I it's still one of the things that I I cringe about. Now. It's looking back on it which is almost twenty years later so one of the things that you talked about is having empathy and management and what how how can managers effectively use empathy as a tool. 16:28.13 Eric Girard To me, it goes back to being a good human I think that managers need to be just generally good people and that means things like listening well building rapport creating a connection with people. That I think is is table stakes for you know if you're going to manage people then you need to know how to build relationships with people and it comes down to asking questions and listening deeply and ah in my book I talk about different levels of listening you know everything from you're talking and I'm thinking about what I'm going to say. All the way through to your talking and I'm really connecting to you and really understanding what you're trying to say so first off just practicing being a really good listener in general and then with empathy Daniel Goldman in his book emotional intelligence talks about 3 different levels of empathy. 17:22.52 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are. 17:24.82 Eric Girard Starting from cognitive empathy where I'm thinking about what you're feeling you know and you know maybe the the catchphrase for that one is you know you're you're talking and I'm thinking about wow that must suck and so the the phrase might be wow sucks to be you then you've got. Ah, emotional empathy where you're starting to actually feel what the other person feels and that's where we channel Bill Clinton and say and mean I feel your pain and then you've got um this third level of empathy where it's it's beyond thinking and it's beyond feeling. But it's about being compassionate and saying I'm ready to jump in and help you and and when we're in this third level of empathy this compassion and empathy level oxytocin is being produced in the in the brain and oxytocin is the same hormone the same chemical that's released. 18:13.93 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 18:21.40 Eric Girard When parents are taking care of their new baby. So you're holding this tiny little human being and you're like I will do anything for you. That's oxytocin and when you feel that level of caring for another human being. You are really let ready to help them out. 18:27.29 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 18:37.14 Eric Girard But not everybody is naturally that that empathetic, not everybody is ready to dive right into that So in the book I talk about a couple of things you can do to build those levels of empathy you know things like um, just starting to go places. You wouldn't normally go and put yourself in situations. You wouldn't normally be in. 18:45.94 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Think. 18:56.70 Eric Girard So you get out of your bubble and you start to experience other people's point of view. The the key thing that that I talk about is walking a mile in other people's shoes and so for example, 1 thing that I'm going to do is go find opportunities to actually serve the homeless face-to-face. 18:56.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 19:03.83 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Write it. 19:14.40 Eric Girard I've been giving money to homeless organizations for years I give I give bags of of stuff to homeless people in the corner. You know I'll give food and I'll give supplies and things to folks in the corners. But I've never actually sat down and had a meal with a homeless person and so it's like you know what? that to me is going to be how I'm going to build empathy. 19:14.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Will. 19:20.31 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 19:28.45 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Days Pretty how I build in. 19:32.57 Eric Girard For people who are unhoused is I'm going to go sit and have a meal. So can you put yourself in a situation like that. Um, where you're experiencing different things that that cause you to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. 19:45.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 19:46.96 Eric Girard That those are some things that you can do that are simple and complicated at the same time where you can build empathy. 19:51.10 bizzyweb I Just I just remember that when my son was born I was utterly I didn't have oxytocin I was I had utter terror because they because here's what happens is your wife hasn't slept in weeks and you're tired too. 20:00.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 20:01.28 Eric Girard Ah. 20:09.48 bizzyweb And here's this tiny creature and go take it into a warm room with lullaby music on with the lights off but don't drop it and don't fall asleep. So I world I had a much different experience. 20:23.10 Eric Girard Ah, my my funniest story of the girls. So I have twin 14 year old girls and um, we got one of those those glider rockers when they were when they were born and so when it was my turn to to put them to sleep or whatever. 20:35.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah. 20:40.76 Eric Girard Would take both of them and sort of cuddle them in my arms and sit in the rocker and I would Rock. You know we'd be dark in the room and we'd be rocking and maybe there's some music we're just hanging out and I'm exhausted. They're tired and so we all fall asleep I would start snoring. Sitting upright in this chair I would start soaring and I remember I don't know whose hand it was but some little tiny hand reached up behind them grabbed my lips and push for should it was so funny. Yeah. 21:00.45 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, if it. 21:07.73 bizzyweb If things just just. 21:10.11 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Perfect. Ah, as only a daughter can do Yes I love that well and I think tying it back to management I Think for. 21:21.33 Eric Girard I. 21:21.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb The experience of working with someone and trying to build empathy for them. Especially if you're thrust into the management role early or but without proper preparation. You have a tendency to think oh I'm I'm the most important person in the room because I'm a manager. 21:39.29 Eric Girard Mm. 21:39.41 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And truly effective managers at least to me feel like the ones that really do understand that it's about serving the people that quote unquote work for you. So as as you're building. 21:50.79 Eric Girard Um. 21:53.55 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb That empathy I Love the X I Love the exercises and and the ideas of okay, well let's do something that could also be team building so bringing everybody out together and we all work together at the homeless shelter to say Okay, well. Not only do we all have it much better than we thought we did. But. Hey let's let's all just serve and see what that feels like and then maybe we can all work together as a team. 22:16.95 Eric Girard Yeah, absolutely team building is really important and I would some team building can be very simple. It could be as simple as hey, let's go do something like let's go bowling. You know it doesn't it doesn't have to be complicated and especially if you set it up where it's like look. 22:27.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 22:35.57 Eric Girard We don't expect you to be a good bowler like that's not the point of this the point is to hang out and there'll be food and there'll be drinks and there'll be music and we'll be talking and oh by the way if you want a bowl that's fine, but there you know there's something to do. 22:45.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Is. 22:49.80 Eric Girard Um, I've done I've played bocce ball in Losco California and you know done all kinds of really neat things but it just comes down to just hang out with these people and get to know them better. 1 thing I do want to say is that with all this talk around empathy your listeners might be thinking oh geez like I now have to take on every single. 22:57.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 23:09.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, means. 23:09.12 Eric Girard Problem My employees have and that's that's not the case I'm a big advocate of boundaries I'm a bit big advocate of saying hey you know what? um I'm I'm I'm here for you I'm happy to listen and at the same time you know and I care for you. And at the same time I need to hold you accountable and you know there are there's performance that's expected that we need to to figure out and so we need to talk about how we get you from this trough that you might be in back up to your previous good performance. 23:27.63 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Great. 23:39.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 23:42.23 Eric Girard And then depending on the organization. There might be an employee assistance plan. There might be other things. There might be hr that you can refer folks to to say hey you know I I am not a counselor I'm not a therapist but I know how to get you one and and I'll help you with that. 23:54.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Flow. 23:57.59 Eric Girard So that you don't take on more than you're You're capable of. 24:03.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, so it feels like this is something of an art form right? So is there is there a process or a set of guidelines that you run folks through to coach and provide feedback to employees. Without letting them put the monkey on your back right? or you know without getting out of hand. Yeah. 24:19.81 bizzyweb Because that is important you do have to have delicate conversations with people times about the personal. 24:20.27 Eric Girard Um, yeah. 24:24.60 Eric Girard You do? yeah um and it's funny that you said monkey because there's a book in the Harvard business review called who's got the monkey which is ah it's a fantastic article that was written in the 70 s seventy s and then republished in the 90 s. 24:36.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yep. 24:41.71 Eric Girard About delegation and degrees of authority and I'd really encourage folks to pick that up. It's free off of the Hbr website and it's ah it's a great opportunity to think about how do I you know how far do I let people go before I need them to check in with me and how do I encourage them. 24:49.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Prevent. 25:00.81 Eric Girard To not come to me for every little thing like do some thinking and come to me with a possible solution doesn't have to be right? but just come to me with you know, having done some thought some thinking before you know you say hey this is broken and can you help me fix it like well what what have you already tried. Um. 25:01.23 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Move. 25:08.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 25:16.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 25:20.41 Eric Girard So the the Frameworks I use for feedback and coaching are again very simple I Keep them simple for coaching I use a grow model which is well-known and grow stands for goals reality options. Way forward and so during a coaching conversation either. 25:34.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Next. 25:38.89 Eric Girard Either party can start the grow conversation. You know this is what I want to talk about for goals. This is how things are right now this is what I have tried or what I could do and this is what I will do in in order to move forward and it's a very fluid model so you don't have to stick to it linearly you can. Keep going from g to r to o back to g if you need to redo the goals and so on there's also a fantastic book by Michael Bunge stander called the coaching habit and he comes up with 7 questions that you can ask during a coaching conversation. So I love to feather the grow model in with. Ah, his 7 questions. Um to to go deep into. So yeah, what's going on now. What could you do? What do you need from me so a good a good one two punch there with with coaching with feedback I use the sbi model again something that's well-known. Situation behavior impact this is a situation where this thing occurred this is the behavior I observed so it's actually something that you could you know film on your phone and then ah the impact is your subjective version of. 26:35.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 26:51.36 Eric Girard The impact it had on you or on others and you can use sbi for positive and constructive feedback. You know for example, feedback I gave my graphic designer for the slides she made for for lead like a pro. The new course Sandra when you made the slides for this course. 27:08.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 27:09.73 Eric Girard There's the situation you used amazing graphic design techniques and great instructional design techniques to ensure that learners were able to track and apply what they learned there's the behavior and I think that resulted in. A fantastic course that is going to really engage learners and keep them from tuning out. Thank you There's the impact really easy just takes a little practice and then boom you're you're providing actionable feedback people know what they stand. It's clear going back to Brene Brown's quote. And um, you know there's no guessing about where I stand. 27:47.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Awesome! Well trigby I think it's time for a quick break in our podcasts and yeah. 27:54.70 bizzyweb Yep, first time we're ah where we've got a sponsor so so pause for we' pause for a second and we'll come back with Eric in just a bit and all right. We're back first time ever. We had a sponsor that was awesome. Ah, thanks to them. Um. 28:10.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Distinguished Sponsor Wow that was amazing. Yeah. 28:11.44 bizzyweb Distinguished sponsor absolutely Eric ah what's I would ask your question I hope I think will hopefully spur a lot of conversation is what are some fundamental differences between management and leadership. 28:27.37 Eric Girard Um, I think they're related um and and I think there's there's a little bit of ah ah maybe Pandora's box isn't the right analogy here. But there's a little bit of does 1 beget the other sort of a thing. So I think in order to be a good manager. 28:37.40 bizzyweb And. 28:44.63 Eric Girard You need to be a good leader and I think that there are good leaders out there who are not managers and I also think that there are managers out there who are not good leaders so they they they come together and I think that a lot of what I talk about in the book and what I teach. 28:49.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 29:04.59 Eric Girard Blur the line between management and leadership because there are some people who will say oh management is like the the blocking and tackling management is the technical side of things and leadership is more of the soft skills and I would say well first off I wouldn't call them soft soft skills I'd call them power skills. Ah you know things like. 29:09.43 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 29:21.94 Eric Girard Goal setting and delegation and feedback and coaching That's a power skill learning how to do that Well will fundamentally change the dynamic of your team and so I think that there's a bit of a blurred line between management and leadership and. In in the book I actually address this because you know folks will will say Well, what's the difference. You know? are you talking to managers or leaders I'm like well actually talking to both Um I Want managers to be good leaders I Want managers to be good human beings who can build relationships with people. 29:48.13 bizzyweb Yeah. 29:58.65 Eric Girard Who can ask good questions who can coach. Well who can hold people accountable through good feedback and also get the day-to-day done and I think that that's that's the the line that I straddle with management and leadership. 30:12.97 bizzyweb Gotcha I think to me I've always strived that if I if I tweak the people that work for me and and keep them on course then I get to lead. 30:26.68 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 30:26.79 bizzyweb And I don't have to manage and I don't have get down to the weeds and have to review Kpi's and you know a yeah, how long did you spend on the phone this week you know? Ah, but if I'm how if I have them focused on their ultimate goals and I'm coaching them along the way. 30:28.86 Eric Girard Um. 30:45.34 bizzyweb Then then I I get to be a leader and I don't have to be a manager because I think I'm one of those people that that I think that I don't really get excited about having to have discussions about performance with people. It's It's not fun for me. 30:47.72 Eric Girard So yep, yeah. 30:47.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I Like that. 30:56.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Fourth. 31:03.40 Eric Girard Um I don't think it's fun for anybody I yeah. 31:03.32 bizzyweb And yeah, and it doesn't excite me to have to remind people like hey hey are you are you doing your job this week and you know stuff like that I was thinking the old Homer Simpson there's a great home simpsons episode where. Um, he gets hired by James Bond Super villain to run the run run the run a nuclear plant for the the super villain and all he he goes in he asks the guys. Ah how how hard are you got? What are you guys doing? Oh we're working Mr. Simpson okay could you work harder and they go oh yes, sir and they start working harder. So that's that's that's the management style I go with Cooper if you're leading then that then you can do that. 31:43.76 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb If you. 31:50.98 bizzyweb I wanted to circle back though Eric I think you're probably the same age that Dave and I are and I think one of the things that Dave and I both sometimes struggle with is is delegation because especially if you have a complex thing that you're working through and especially for entrepreneurs I think. 32:09.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb E. 32:11.10 bizzyweb That ah, if you've if you've grown and cycled your business by doing a lot of the work yourself having to pass it off to other people is a challenge and a couple of fronts 1 is trust and 2 is sometimes it's just easier if you do it yourself and that's not actually helpful. So can you give us some strategies of how you can delegate effectively to the people working gonna. 32:35.96 Eric Girard Yeah, um, that that of course has its own chapter and um, and and yeah I think a big trap that new managers fall into is it's just easier if I do it myself. It'll be better. It'll be faster. 32:42.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, if. 32:51.57 Eric Girard Let me just do it myself and then they become they get into the hero complex and they start working crazy hours and the rest of the team is like well what do we do because the manager is doing everything and so I think yeah, the the first thing is to to really do an assessment of your tasks. 33:00.64 bizzyweb Yeah. 33:09.88 Eric Girard And think about what must I Actually do myself. What really must I do myself and then taking an honest inventory of what pardon me What could I delegate and then what could I share. 33:21.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 33:27.59 Eric Girard Because there's that third possibility that a lot of people don't even think about of oh I I could share that didn't even know so doing that inventory first and then secondly when you decide that you are going to delegate um being really really clear about what do you expect. So what does good look like and how do we know when you're done and at what point do you need to check in with me so that goes back to the who's got the monkey monkey article about how far can you run before you need to check in with me, you know everywhere from I'm going to sit. 33:54.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 34:03.40 Eric Girard And wait for to be told all the way through to I'm just going to run with this and not even tell you about it and then in between all these degrees of freedom that you discuss with your employee but being very clear about what does good good look like making sure that people have the resources they need to be successful and. A big part of this is viewing delegation as an investment so in in my business when I started your our training solutions I Thought you know what? I'll do it all myself I'm a solopreneur I'll do everything myself I will design develop deliver The courses I will create the branded powerpoint decks I will do my own bookkeeping I will run my own website. 34:25.86 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 34:41.42 Eric Girard I can do it all I'm really smart I can figure it out and I wound up being overwhelmed and not only was I overwhelmed but I was making mistakes because I wasn't actually as good as I thought I was at all these things and so for example, the website turned into a morass and the first thing I did was hire my friend sandra. 34:47.71 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 34:57.82 bizzyweb Ah. 34:59.14 Eric Girard To come in and clean up the website and she knocked that out of the park and I'm like okay how would you feel about taking on the slide deck creation. She's like sure and she knocked that out of the park so she showed me what she could do which made it easier for me to hand more and more to her so giving her small tasks and then you know giving her bigger and bigger tasks until. 35:12.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So move. 35:18.47 Eric Girard You know I just rely on her completely for so many things and then with the the bookkeeping I was using quickbook self-employed but just so so simple I thought I got this. This is so easy and then I handed my books off to my accountant at the end of the year and ah in return I got a bill for $1000 to fix all my mistakes. 35:35.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh vouch who won. 35:38.17 Eric Girard So then I hired a bookkeeper like you know so there are things that I had to learn the hard way that you know I'm not as good as I think I am at all these things and so it finally got to a point where okay what is it that I Really must do. 35:51.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 35:53.90 Eric Girard As a Ceo Juro training solutions. What must I do that that has to have my face and name on it and then what are the other things that I can delegate off um things like producing my my ah virtual programs. 36:04.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 36:07.10 Eric Girard And running the website and graphic design and bookkeeping and marketing I'm no good at marketing. So I've got a marketing manager and publicity. Those are all things that actually once I brought in the right person. It was a relief to get it off my off. My. 36:12.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Of. 36:25.82 Eric Girard My chest and it was an investment in time I had to invest a lot to to get the expectations clear. But once they were clear I now can go to Sandra for example and say hey will you look this over and and let me know what tweaks need to be made. And boom. It's done and I get it back in 24 hours and it's much more detailed than I would have even thought of right. 36:45.89 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I Love that So I want to change gears just for a sec because I think one of the biggest things that we all deal with in management or in running business or being entrepreneurs are really in daily life is the fact that change is the true constant. So. Things are flying at you and you have finally got things figured out but all of a sudden.. All the rules are Changing. You know all of a sudden you need to do something new in marketing or you need to take on this new thing or maybe a client has thrown a big wrench into the Works. So. You have some tips on how to manage that constant change as a manager right? Well boy we're going through chapter by Chapter This is awesome. Oh yes, we do. 37:26.30 Eric Girard Oh yeah, yeah, that also gets its own chapter. Ah yeah, it's like you've got the book in front of you. Um, so. 37:33.48 bizzyweb And. 37:40.16 Eric Girard I think the the first thing to realize is what you said is that change is constant change is constantly going to be happening to us and understanding that reactions to change are normal so there are a couple of different models that I talk about um when it comes to change and my favorite. 37:49.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He is. 37:57.86 Eric Girard Is Elizabeth Kubler -ross's change curve and this is based on her work on grief and death and dying and it's greatly simplified so I use a greatly simplified version of it where for any given change. You can expect and you can expect to see your employees experience. Four things denial. 37:59.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb See. 38:17.69 Eric Girard Resistance exploration and commitment. So starting from that's not going to affect me. That's not going to change anything to no yeah I don't want to do this I don't want to go through this and then your job as a manager is to coach folks along so that they get to exploration. Ah, what's in it for me. What do I get if I get on board with this change and then finally commitment where you're signed up and you're on board and so your job as a manager is to recognize these 4 phases in yourself and then recognize them in other people and do what you can. To coach folks along and get them out of resistance because folks will get hung up in resistance and stay there and how do you keep them moving into well what's in it for me. What do I get for this and my favorite my favorite phrase here is Whiffham what's in it for me and so always always answer the whiffham question. 39:04.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And yep. 39:09.22 bizzyweb I Love that. 39:14.67 Eric Girard So you know if we change the payroll system we change the timekeeping system we change. Um, who owns our company we change our Ceo what's in it for you. There's something in it for you. Let's find that and that gets folks up to commitment faster. 39:23.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, evening right. 39:30.10 Eric Girard And then just realizing that that that change curve happens over and over again for each change you know and depending on how how crazy things are in the world could be a change a day you know or more and more. Um so helping folks move through each change in a healthy way. Is your job as a manager and and it comes back down to coaching. 39:54.37 bizzyweb Um, Eric you're a boy scout right? Well of course not anymore. But I think you aged out of the program. How I I hide how high up did you get. 39:55.76 Eric Girard Not anymore used to be. 40:06.60 Eric Girard I was an eagle scout with 3 palms order the arrow ran a camp staff. Um I was big into it until I was about 21 40:13.89 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Amazing. Well we've got trig v classed out then Eric is and I'm an eagle too I only had one palm but I was order of the arrow as well. So. 40:13.98 bizzyweb This is this is what yeah this is the this is my social post when I nod politely and I act like I know everything was I So is it here. 40:21.40 Eric Girard Okay. 40:28.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You know all all of those things. 1 of my bio parts is I know how to tie knots with the best of them right? So is there is there some things and I know that I got a ton out of it but are there are there some things from the scouts and from the program that you took to your training management. 40:32.13 Eric Girard Yeah, yeah. 40:44.19 Eric Girard And that's how I got into learning and development. So I've been in learning and development for over 30 years professionally but it started when I was 15 in the boy scouts and I was working on the the waterfront at my local camp. 40:47.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb No. 40:54.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Is. 41:01.62 Eric Girard A summer camp and I was teaching kids how to swim and paddle a canoe and row a boat and I used to love it when a kid would really struggle with something like I I still remember this one kid I was working with who could not get the canoe to pivot to turn around and I worked with him and worked with him and we finally took a break and I told them to relax. It was not that big of a deal. It was just a merit badge. And he went away and he came back the next day and he nailed it just nailed it and I'm like dude that's awesome. You know and lots of praise and he was proud of himself and I was proud of him and I'm like I like this so you know learning how to teach started in the boy scouts for me and um. 41:25.11 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh ah. 41:32.33 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 41:40.20 Eric Girard That that carried through to today you know, just that that loving to see the the light bulbs pop over people's heads is is where that started and funnily enough. You know I started teaching on the waterfront at camp wolfborough in California. 41:47.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? Yeah yeah. 41:56.81 Eric Girard I Still teach in the water because for fun on weekends I teach Scuba So there's still so there's still water involved. 41:59.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh yeah, yeah, and that's that's like a whole different level right? because not only are you teaching people how to do something but if they do it wrong. They're gonna drown. So yeah, it's it's much more intense. I'm open water sorterted and my instructor was very different than I'm sure yours was because I did mine in Jamaica and we did our final test in seventy five feet of water on the bottom instead of under 20 so like I was like you you have a beed man. You'll be fine man I was like okay. 42:22.69 Eric Girard Um. 42:27.20 Eric Girard Oh my goodness. Yes. 42:34.17 Eric Girard Wow. 42:34.53 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb But it is what it is so yet Scuba is is entirely different. So did you take some some tips from from that experience into management as well. 42:44.20 Eric Girard You know the the thing that that crosses over between what I do professionally and what I do for fun in terms of teaching is the incremental nature of teaching like I talk to people all the time I Love to talk about teaching Scuba and. 42:50.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 42:57.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Moved. 43:01.51 Eric Girard People who don't understand Scuber don't know Scuba haven't done it. They're like oh Wow like I could never do that like I could never just get in the water and start to Scuba and my response is well. You don't like you start you start in your living room or your office in an e-learning program and you get that academic. 43:11.31 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Why. 43:20.64 Eric Girard Exposure to everything first. So you're exposed to everything on a cognitive level first then you come to the shop and we sit in a classroom and we talk about that and we get your questions answered then we go out to the pool and we learn about the gear by setting it up a couple of times. 43:24.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 3 43:38.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yep. 43:39.17 Eric Girard Then you get into the water which is ° no pardon me ° and very very comfortable and I'm going to hand you your gear and teach you how to put it on in the water and for the first hour we're going to stay in the shallow end. 43:44.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb All yeah. 43:50.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who who. 43:56.46 Eric Girard Yeah, you're going to take your first breath under water by just bending over and sticking your face in the water and breathing through the regulator like there's no throwing you in the deep end. There's none of that. It's a very well thought out progression through two days in the pool and you know at any point you can opt out and say you know what this is not for me. Um. 44:00.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Me correct. 44:12.76 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 44:16.80 Eric Girard And you know we get to the end and I look at somebody and I'm like I don't I don't think you're ready for the ocean yet I don't bring you to the ocean like I I don't force anybody to go to the ocean and then when we get to the ocean. There's no surprises like you've learned everything you need to learn. You're just demonstrating them in a different environment. 44:23.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb From here. 44:30.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 44:35.85 Eric Girard And so it's a very controlled Well-t thought out well-designed process that gets people to the desired end state which is I'm a scuba diver but we don't just throw you in and so it's it's the same in management training as well. We don't I don't just throw people in. 44:47.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right are. 44:53.10 Eric Girard You know there's There's some warm up and there's some some getting ready to prepare to commence to get started before we actually do it. Yeah, there's a lot of muscle memory and what I do in in management training as well because I always always build in activities. 44:57.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? Building some muscle memory and how to interact with people and Wow. Yeah. 45:12.11 Eric Girard Where I'll have people. We talked about the grow model. We talked about the sbi model I'll have people practice that in a lab and I even set the Las Vegas ground rule. You know the Las Vegas ground rule what happens in Las Vegas yeah what happens in vegas stays in vegas and so I'm like hey welcome to Las Vegas 45:20.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb No oh yes, of course. Yes, yeah. 45:21.23 bizzyweb If you like oh on that one? Oh yeah. 45:31.35 Eric Girard You know for this class we're in Las Vegas we're going to try different things. We're going to try new things you can ask any question nothing. There are no stupid questions. You can ask your questions you can clarify things. It's not going to get repeated none of us will repeat what I hear what we hear in here. 45:31.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 45:37.32 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 45:46.38 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 45:48.49 Eric Girard So that you walk out of here understanding how to provide feedback or how to do coaching or how to delegate because you'll have actually done it here in the lab First you actually do it in my class before you go off and inflict it on ah on ah a real employee. 46:02.55 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 46:03.20 bizzyweb You and I have had very different experiences in Las Vegas Eric 46:09.79 Eric Girard Um, I'm not I'm not a gambler. It's just just not my not my thing so I don't even really like Las Vegas but but I thought that that commercial was pretty funny. 46:17.75 bizzyweb Yeah I was thinking the the old one that if if you sit down at a table and you can't figure out who the manager is within 15 minutes that means you're the manager. 46:17.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb That was wonderful. Yeah. 46:27.85 Eric Girard Oh god. 46:32.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 46:33.53 bizzyweb Eric we'd like to end our podcast by giving people a blatant and cheap plug. So you've got a podcast you've got a book is where can people find the book. 46:44.41 Eric Girard Yeah, so lead like a pro the essential guide for new managers is available on Amazon it is a paperback a Kindle book and an audio book. Ah narrated by yours truly so that may may or may not be a plus. Ah. 46:57.47 bizzyweb How about the podcast. Oh yeah. 46:59.42 Eric Girard You can find me on Linkedin. Yeah, absolutely I'm on Linkedin I'm all over Linkedin um, my website isgerardtrainingsoluts.com and the website is management development unlocked and it's available. Any place you get your podcasts. 47:17.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Welcome to dial it in and we have Eric Gerard today with us Eric was once a new poorly prepared manager he was promoted oops stop pause Dave Bath Eric Gerard was once a new poorly prepared manager. He was promoted to lead his former teammates and he did everything wrong. He vowed to work to overcome his deficiencies and help ensure those who came after him didn't repeat his mistakes. His mission is to help new managers not just survive but to thrive in their new role. He's the author of a new book lead like a pro. The essential guide for new managers. He has over 30 years experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees. Welcome Eric Gerard