00:01.68 bizzyweb Hey everybody we're back and Dave's not with me today I've got my buddy rich with me today. Welcome to the podcast rich. Ah. 00:07.92 Rich Gall Thanks trigby, Great to be here. 00:12.35 bizzyweb We are recording this the first week in January so how was your Christmas what was your what was your favorite gift. 00:19.36 Rich Gall It was fantastic I got a Chef's knife which I've been wanting for ah quite a while such Japanese made just cuts through everything. It's It's a lot of fun to play with how about you. 00:26.92 bizzyweb My favorite gift that I gave is I gave my kid and who's nine years old a vr headset and he is one of the games that he just absolutely loves is this game where you have light saber in your hands. And then cubes are fired at you to the beat of popular music. So as you're listening to it. You have to cut the cubes with the light sabers depending on whether or not there's narrow so there's a down arrow. You have to cut down with your hands and the right color light saber and. 00:49.60 Rich Gall Um, fun. 01:02.75 bizzyweb I played this and I got immediately addicted. It's a game called beatsaber and you can get expansion packs and one of the expansion packs that I got was the the queen so Queen expansion pack so my son for the last two weeks has been working through queens back catalog and and and thinking it's fantastic. So um, this is my awkward way of transitioning to our guest today I'm really excited because ah our guest today Gavin Stone wrote a book called how to tell if people are lying to you. 01:21.56 Rich Gall Nice good education. 01:37.64 bizzyweb To tell if someone is lying I should say that I get the title right? But Gavin is a ah security and intelligent covert specialist. He has 20 years of applied experience globally deployed by government organizations such as the british british ministry of defense. Especially is human Intel which in his he is adept at the full required spectrum of trade craft skills. We're gonna get into what exactly that means up notices expertise in surveillance and antisurveillance together with time sensitive human analysis and high risk dynamic situations. Stone knows how to accurately watch people from afar or gain insight from a breath away and when the ladder is needed. He can deploy proprietary and exceptional skills and eliittation deception detection influence persuasion and damage mitigation which is any of this apply to you in your job and sales at all. 02:26.75 Rich Gall Just just a little bit. You know I've never been lied to in a sales position before. Never. 02:31.60 GAVIN STONE Um, yeah. 02:31.11 bizzyweb Never yeah, never he is ranked number 28 in the world as a body language expert by global gurus top 30 and again his book is called how to tell if someone is lying and he has also written a new fiction. Novel'll call the unforgetten spy available on Amazon and all major outlets. Welcome Gavin. 02:55.30 GAVIN STONE Hello Thank you for having me I noticed when you were talking there for the people who can't see obviously because it's audible rich when you were caught when you're calling that off. He had a little twitch on the side of his mouth and it was just a momentary smile of contempt of as if to say I can do that? Yeah easy. 03:11.50 Rich Gall Yeah, just a bit. 03:12.89 bizzyweb So Gavin Gavin obviously lives in the Uk so this is my AckerBay of transitioning and saying Gavin what is because my son will ask me later. What is your favorite Queen song. 03:14.43 GAVIN STONE Yeah. 03:24.55 GAVIN STONE My favorite Queen song probably hammered to fall you familiar with that one. Yeah and I would say that's probably 1 of my favorites. 03:28.65 bizzyweb All great I am familiar with that? Yes, yes, rich, rich but Rich rich. How about you. 03:37.72 Rich Gall I Just we will We will rock you I mean of course. 03:41.98 bizzyweb Yeah, it's it's it's a classic. It's an American American Arena Rock one so well Gavin I guess my second followup question is given your background given that you your youre british and that you worked in the spy trade are are you James Bowland are 03:42.39 GAVIN STONE Um, classic. 04:00.68 bizzyweb And know you're retired So does that make you Pierce rosin. 04:01.12 GAVIN STONE Um, I No I wish um yeah, and of course pice prosing doesn't quite have the good looks that I have with you know, con and can have everything there but ah no, it's yep, Exactly're we're all in the same boat here. 04:09.56 bizzyweb Yeah, and understood me me fair make me too. Yeah. 04:16.73 GAVIN STONE Um, so but yeah, it's um, it's something that Hollywood does kind of glorify. Um the the champagne and suit side of it. 04:26.96 bizzyweb So how did you get into ah the intelligence craft. 04:32.82 GAVIN STONE I actually got into it in a completely different way to where it normally is done. So Normally it's it's you have like what they call spotters on the college campus and they'll look out for shoot students that really shine and these spotters will have ah a contact at M I 6 and they will say look I've got someone here who. Kind of ticks the boxes. Its really worthwhile me on the other hand I had a knock on the door one day and it was a friend of mine who said look I need some help with something and I said sure what you want? Um, we we ended up tracking a guy down and ah I inadvertently got into something called process serving. 05:07.61 GAVIN STONE I Don't know whether you're familiar with it. But we have basically finding people with with outstanding warrants or court someones and that kind of thing. Oh oh you, you have to issue them personally serve them sometimes called a pursurf with this ah court someones and I was right at the very bottom the bread and butter stuff. 05:08.40 bizzyweb Ah I day am. 05:23.99 GAVIN STONE And I just kind of ended up working my way up from there where I went on to private investigations and then ah government departments were hiring me for fraudulent things and then just built up through the government departments till I eventually got into the intelligence side of things. 05:40.74 bizzyweb So if you work in intelligence. What does that really mean what? how would ah what are people in doesn really do yeah. 05:42.81 GAVIN STONE Oh okay, so okay, so your your intelligence officers as they were have you got m I six m I five that kind of thing your intelligence officers even Cia case officers the way I like to put it is. We're making friends in the most dangerous of circumstances. Um, what we're going to do. We're going to go over to a foreign country. Usually we're going to find somebody that has access to secrets to governmental secrets that we want and we are literally going to become. We're going to inject ourselves into that person's life and we're going to become so ah, build such a relationship in a very short space of time. That it it you know, kind of creates a bond that that allows them to you to pitch them and say look can you help us out. 06:30.45 bizzyweb What? Ah um, what are some of the trainings that you've got that you go through in order to learn how to do that. 06:36.79 GAVIN STONE Going you so we have to do a lot of like human rapport building and and kind of being able to profile people reasonably quickly. Get used to what makes them chicken What motivates them? Um, and then that's built up from there to kind of the the elicitation side of it which I know you. Definitely want to have a little chatter about it in the short while um and then you know, kind of so this is all the the classroom stuff as it were and then you've got the other side of it where you've got all the the shooting and the lock picking and the and the other bits and pieces. So but you're relying more on the on the human element. Than what you are on any of the practical stuff. 07:15.92 bizzyweb I Know Rich is really a red wanting to talk about a elicitation but before that I want to talk a little bit about Hollywood so you actually worked in human intelligence are there are there spy movies that are realistic that about about the track The craft. 07:29.61 GAVIN STONE Um, um so some of them have like genuine tradecrafting. But I I mean obviously it's all for entertainment. So um, the truth of the master is. 07:38.66 bizzyweb Right. 07:42.10 GAVIN STONE If you're getting chased through Moscow and there's explosions going off and gun fights and whatever else and you're doing your job very very wrong and you're probably never work in the industry again. Um I mean yes, every intelligence officer is trained to be able to do that because you are effectively in a hostile country doing a legal act of espionage. So therefore you might need to use. Those skills to be able to get out get an ex fill and and and get home safely. Um, so we do have that kind of training but like I say if you are using it then then things have gone really really safe. Um, so but on the on the flip side of that you look at the the tradecraft in certain things like um. Probably 1 of the best ones was a series called Burn Notice so you're familiar with Burn notice. Yeah I mean yeah, that was great. In fact, they had a guy coming from Cia to to actually teach some of the tradecraft and so some of the trade craft in that is genuine tradecraft and a lot of the time. 08:21.89 Rich Gall What. 08:21.96 bizzyweb Um, yeah I Loved burnout. 08:37.68 GAVIN STONE s just silly little things like eating when you're nervous to calm yourself down and and and da things like that. Um, so that is good but again I think it got to about season three or four and they started running out of things to use and the explosion has started happening everywhere but you've got the whole again. Its politic license. It is There's a lot of drama and because that's what it's there for it's there for entertainment nobody in intelligence has twenty four seven of gun shot explosions car chasers women got races full enough cliffsy you you you wouldn't last a week. 09:10.73 bizzyweb Yeah, well it was yeah and that and he had that great dots charger that kept giving completely trashed over every single week. It's just the are Harris. 09:18.33 GAVIN STONE Um, yeah, yeah, the the most inconspicuous color in Florida. 09:25.70 bizzyweb The only other the only other person that I've known who's worked in human intelligence worked for the cia and he is the most if you look at him. He is the most vanilla person you'd ever see. You wouldn't look at him twice and um. 09:37.80 GAVIN STONE Um. 09:41.48 bizzyweb Years ago I used to play risk with him and 2 of his buddies from work and it was awful because they would talk about things in the general sense like hey do you remember what happened on Wednesday and then they look at me and like oh come on guys. But 1 time 1 time he called me. 09:46.20 GAVIN STONE Um, and. 09:59.00 bizzyweb And it was one of those overseas echo things where you could see here. It was connecting and he called he hey hey how are you I'm good man. How are how are you? He's like I'm good. Can you do me a quick favor yet. Yeah okay can can you call my wife tell her I'll be home Thursday um. 10:16.23 GAVIN STONE Um. 10:18.80 bizzyweb Aren't you home now. Well not not really did you could you just do that 1 thing for me did do ah okay, okay, yeah, all right, great thanks and he hung out and we've never spoken about it. 10:29.55 GAVIN STONE Um. 10:31.51 bizzyweb But it was clearly not at home and he clearly was not in a position to talk to his wife and I I still to this day Wonder what? what? what he is and and what he really does but he if you ask him? he'll say he works for the state department so that the the. 10:40.86 GAVIN STONE Um, yeah, so I come sorry. 10:47.70 bizzyweb Yeah, the purpose of this this podcast gap is. We're trying to help small business owners get better at their jobs and I know one of the things that I'm I and that I'm reasonably good at I think Rich is is too but we really wanted to go to school on on ah your. 10:52.66 GAVIN STONE Um. 11:06.80 bizzyweb Ability to learn and and garner things based on body language because both rich and I are great. Jobs are in selling and and we I think are intimately familiar with knowing that what people say isn't nearly as important as how they say it. 11:12.56 GAVIN STONE Um. 11:24.40 bizzyweb Would you agree with that rich. 11:25.33 Rich Gall Absolutely so elicitation is fun to say ah but I've never heard it in a sentence before. Can you tell tell me what it is. 11:29.51 GAVIN STONE Oh okay, yeah, so so eliitation is basically the art of obtaining information from somebody without necessarily asking a question in ah in an unassuming way. So when it comes to questions. People are naturally guarded. If you go into kind kind of interrogation row mode and I'm going kind of saying to you hey rich where did you grow where did you go to school where yeah, all of a sudden you know and people do the same kind of mistake when they go on dates that they they go on dates and they ask questions whereas if you were to use a elicitation it kind of keeps conversation flowing without it feeling like It's interrogative interrogative. Um, so what you're do in. You're making what's called provocative statements and it's a way to get somebody talking where you can say 1 single sentence 1 statement and that will then get them to kind of give you more information it will cut the conversation from being down like a fifty fifty to you're giving 10% they're giving 90 so. For example I could turn around to you and I could say hey that football shirt you got in the background I bet that's got a story behind it and ah from that you will then. 12:38.35 bizzyweb It's okay, come. 12:42.28 GAVIN STONE More than likely start saying? Oh Yeah I you know I had this gifted to me and and you know you'll tell me the story behind it. You know? So So it's something that rather than me asking a question say hey that football shows and where did you get that from you can cut that off very quickly with a kind. Ah it was a gift from a friend and that's it The conversation's over and killed. Whereas if I if I do it in a more provocative way and and make it as a statement rather than a question you're going to respond and you're not going to feel like it's an interrogation. 13:09.26 Rich Gall Is that what you call open ended statements. Okay. 13:14.60 GAVIN STONE Pretty much. Yes, so um, with with open-ended questions. You're trying to avoid the yes and no, um, so you you can say to somebody did you stay at home Tuesday night um and they can just say yes and that's it your conversation's over and you're you're you're at a point where look me. You know that's that's it and you've got to move to the next question the next question. Um, whereas if you were to use an open time and say so hey what were you uped on Tuesday they can't give a yes or no, they've got to kind of tell you what they were up to on Tuesday and and that kind of pushes the idea of them being more. More than a 1 ne-word answer as it were. 13:50.25 bizzyweb That was something I I learned early on in my sales product. My my sales training is especially when you're calling people cold on the phone is most salespeople will ask a question that then the people can give and give give the wrong answer to. 14:00.76 GAVIN STONE Um, so. 14:09.15 bizzyweb So Gavin how are you today? Well your answer's gonna be shitty. You're bothering me stop and or I'm in a meeting click and call me later click. So what I counsel people to do is say um. 14:09.75 GAVIN STONE Um, here. 14:26.65 bizzyweb Give them an affirmation to say hey thanks for picking up the phone and the but. 14:31.00 GAVIN STONE I like that I actually had I give some sales training to ah at a call center a while ago and they all got these scripts and and they called me and they said well you have a look at the scripts for me and what yeah, what should we do with them I said the first thing you want to do with them is throw them out. 14:45.30 bizzyweb Yes. 14:46.69 GAVIN STONE Ah, said, there's nothing worse than somebody relying on a script that they're going to read word for word I said it doesn't sound human it sounds monotone. You know there's no, you're not building any relational rapport by doing that and you know they pick up the phone and they'll turn around say hi. It's David calling from Xyz company and you've lost them. You've lost the customer because at that point they're already thinking. How do I get this person off the phone. So if you call them up and you you go for a completely different approach and I tell you the one I taught them? um I rang the company and some some lady answered the phone and you know Xyz company. How can I help. 15:10.64 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:25.16 GAVIN STONE I said hi can you do me a favor I said we're all having a great big bet here in the office where the terminator one or termin two was the best film and you know so far. It's a fifty fifty votes you're gonna make the difference which one would it be which one would you say would and she oh definitely terminate it to I said I knew it brilliant. Thank you You're on the winning team. You. You know you're one of us and welcome them in and and kind of and I said look yeah, thanks for that and and and what it did it built that moment of rapport and it didn't matter what the answer was whether she just said terminated one or terminated to she was still. It was still the right answer she was still on the winning team building that connection and what it does it kind of throws them for a second. Because they used to answer in the phone saying how can I help you and someone says yes, this is my problem or this is what I'm trying to sell you and it breaks that usual pattern that cycle that she's used to or he's used to um and what it does it. It kind of takes them out of work and away from reality for a moment. And then when you've got that kind of bond and connection there with them. You can build on it and then turn around and say look you know? Ah um, I'll got a couple of things I love to speech about if you have a few minutess. Um, at a point you've already kind of built a telephone relationship does that make sense. 16:34.89 bizzyweb It's It's a genius and I'm totally going to steal it and Rich rich is nodding his head sadly saying now he's going to probably have to do some of the same. 16:38.78 GAVIN STONE Um. 16:41.58 Rich Gall Yes, exactly. 16:43.64 GAVIN STONE And and of course it doesn't have to be terminator 1 or terminator two. It can be any number of things. It can be pineapple on pizza. It can be. You know whether ice cream is better than than chocolate or what you know you you as long as you got 2 comparisons and whichever one there's pick is obviously the right one? um. You know? and and if if it's done right? and it's crafted right? then then the the whole thing will work a lot better and again, most importantly is the delivery. You know if this is scripted and somebody tries to read it. It won't work. 17:15.33 bizzyweb Well, the problem with the scripts and it kind of gets back to the the idea of elicitation is scripting is based on telling you what I want you to know? It's not based on what I want from you which is I want you to tell me what the problem is I want you to tell me what you know. 17:25.24 GAVIN STONE Um, is. 17:31.96 bizzyweb And I want to learn from you Not I don't want to tell you things. 17:33.34 GAVIN STONE Exactly yeah. 17:39.18 bizzyweb So you shoot I thought I had a good question there um is. 17:42.17 Rich Gall I going in in cold read like a spy which I read last night fantastic it seems like a lot of spycraft happens in bars or cocktail parties. How much of that is true. 17:44.78 GAVIN STONE Um. 17:54.27 GAVIN STONE Um, ah good. A good amount is actually it doesn't necessarily have to be a bar or a cocktail party. It can be anywhere I mean you know it was done with a a yeah um russian diplomat in London out in the park. Um, a lot of the time. It's actually done on on the dog walk. Um, which you know is is going to scare a lot of diplomats now who walk their dog regularly but it it creates a talking point. It allows you to to so to to infiltrate somebody's life what you've got to do is you've got to start off by doing a surveillance on them long enough to establish what they call a pll or pattern of life. And then when you know where they're going to be every week at the same time whether it's walking the dog whether it's shopping at the supermarket. Whatever it is. You can arrange then to be there at the same time and you you build up this familiarity and you do what's what what's called a smile campaign and those to bit by bit be ah, a regular thing that they see in their life. Whether it's every Saturday at the park whether it's every day at the coffee shop. You just see them every single day and you smile and you build up that relationship of of familiarity and then eventually at some point you can do? What's called the bump and that's when you will go from the transition from just you know, kind of smile and a wave to to kind of hey. My name's Gavin or whatever the case may be or whatever your cover name is or they approach you or you give them a reason to approach you so it is done frequently in in um, public places. So with that in mind you know, obviously you do get a lot of people who. 19:18.22 GAVIN STONE Out in restaurants cocktail bars parties that kind of thing is the ideal opportunity when their guard is down to kind of take advantage. 19:25.69 bizzyweb Have you ever been in a situation where somebody has and I think that sort of transitions into the the discussion about body language is how can you tell when somebody's ready. 19:40.40 GAVIN STONE Um, the truth I mean you, you can to a degree but even and even when you're doing it. You are taking a gamble effectively, especially if you're in a foreign Country. You are about to ask that person to break the law risk their life commit treason. And go through a treacherous act of betrayal to get information for somebody that they hardly know and that you've just met and if you've done a good enough job of building that relationship up and and and kind of making them feel safe and secure and that's the main thing the safety aspect of it making them feel safe then you know you you can kind of pitch them and. It. It literally is a gamble. You know we as good as we'd like to all be ah, profiling and getting everybody's right and and learning everything about everybody and saying yep, this is the highest percent chance. There's always that very minor percentage that they're gonna no not for me. So but it's ah it's it's. Usually an educated guest but usually goes well. 20:38.11 bizzyweb We kind of skipped over the the whole bit about profiling what are some? What are some ways in which small business owners can use to to profile their prospects. What is what are sort of the top 5 things that people need to be considering when they're dealing with somebody new. 20:56.29 GAVIN STONE Oh okay, so this is um, that's a loaded question. What we've got with this is um, is ah the psychology behind the person and and to to understand people and profi in them and to put anybody into a box. Is really really difficult. So it's it's just about so you have to do something called red cell which is ah another cia term where their job is to to be the enemy. And to say right? If yeah so red cell at cia turnarounds say right? if we were Russia or we were China and we were going to attack America how would we do it? What would we do? So they think from the enemy's position and then that's how they go about their they building their attack and then when they know how they would attack. They can then build on the defenses around it. So you've got to kind of do a very similar thing with who you're talking to. You've got a red cell that person and kind of say right is this a single man is this a a family with 7 kids on a dog who who am I selling to so you've got to kind of put yourself in their position and and try and figure out what they've been through and it's it's really difficult I want to plug a friend Chase Hughes who does a yeah um book called six m x and it's one of the best profiling books I've ever read. Um, it can be its six M x stands for 6 minutes x-ray and it allows you to profile pretty much anybody in the world in 6 minutes or less. 22:23.80 GAVIN STONE And you can get ah an idea of their personality type and once you've got that once you know what personality type they are whether they're an intelligence personality whether they're a strength personality whether they're a victim personality. You can then know who you're selling to and have the advantage. 22:42.15 bizzyweb That's amazing. Let's take a quick break because I know I and I want to get back to the body language discussion I for instance, know that rich is adding the card on Amazon right now based on everything I we're back just one second. 22:45.68 GAVIN STONE Um, show have both other. Yeah, so but. 22:50.62 Rich Gall You didn't need me to share but need me to share my screen. 22:59.91 bizzyweb All right? We're back one of the things that is a frustration for me. Gavin is I think and I think for sales people on the whole is they're a really good one on one when they meet with people but with the ah. 23:10.53 GAVIN STONE Um. 23:14.91 bizzyweb With the the pandemic. We all got to to to not be so much in person and we now we're doing a lot of virtual selling So which is why ah to me there are some things that are patently obvious when when you're dealing with people on an online front. 23:24.10 GAVIN STONE Um. 23:34.55 bizzyweb Ah, when it comes to body language like a lot of times you'll see people with glasses and you can see that they're clearly looking at their email because of but the screens reflecting in their ground glasses. So you know you've lost them. But how has. 23:44.30 GAVIN STONE Um, if. 23:49.24 bizzyweb How has that changed the the move to online has that changed intelligence gathering and then ah I want to ask some questions about like what can you learn virtually from people. 24:00.53 GAVIN STONE So virtually I tend to to look at like the whole sales process. Virtually it's it's a lot more difficult with ah when you're dealing with a screen than when you're dealing 1 to one because you you only have that two-dimensional image to go off. 24:17.22 GAVIN STONE So it cuts everything down and it it really limits what you can do on the flip side of that there are some advantages that you've got whereas anybody who's ever written anything called sales copy will know about something called open loops and if you're selling online. This is absolutely perfect and what they'll generally tend to do is say right. In a moment I'm going to show you how to pick any lock in the world using just a um couple of paperclips. But before we get to that I'm going to speak about Xy and z and then what they'll do is they've got someone's attention for something that they really want I want I had to pick any lock in the world with a couple of paperclips. So. So you've got their attention and that open loop um is relying on on the human need for closure our the human need for closure is so so inherently strong that if you if you were to text any of your family right now with hey you'll never guess what just happened your phone will blow up. My wife is one of the worlds for it if I were to turn around to my wife and say oh you never guess what and she goes watching a guy and now it doesn't matter. You got no no, you gotta to tell me you' go to tell me? Um, so so this human lead for for closure is extremely strong so you can use it to your advantage. So what you do is you open a loop. You tell tell your audience you're gonna come back to that in a moment. First you're going to tell them about whatever it is that you you want to and then before you close that loop you open a second loop and you close the first one and um, what you've done is you've you've created another thing for kind of so you're right now I'm about to show you how to pick the lock with 2 paper clips. 25:52.11 GAVIN STONE Um, before I do that I'm going to teach you in a few minutes also how to get into your bank account and add an extra 0 to the end. So I'll come to that in 5 minutes now let's get on with the pangic paperclips. So you teach them the paperclips bit you go to the next bit of the meeting and all the time you've still got their attention because I want to pay attention to all of this because I want to know how that extra 0 was going in on my bank account and but so this is how you so you're constantly keeping that leap frog of open loops going on. And that will keep their attention to the end and as long as you don't open too many loops then you know it should. It should always be you know one open the second one open as you close the first one and and keep that action going and as long as you do that that generally tends to keep people's attention span. Because they want the answer to that question so they'll they'll keep listening and keep keep paying attention. 26:40.91 Rich Gall 1 of the things I was curious about especially in the the digital screen to screen. How do you tell when people are lying to you over ah Webcam. 26:49.35 GAVIN STONE Oh so what? you're looking for is change. Um, so you're looking, you're looking for something different you you want to baseline the person as fast as you can, um, you can usually do it within a few minutes um if your camera is good enough and you can see their eyes then you've got something called eye accesssing queues. So if I were to turn around to you and say rich what color were the walls in your elementary school classroom. So yeah, so you've just gone up and left and then up and right before you've answered so you've gone to 2 places for your memory recall. Um now what I've done is I've just baseline you ah you know. 27:12.76 Rich Gall Tope. 27:16.30 Rich Gall Um, yep. 27:22.86 GAVIN STONE So I now know where you're going to go to give a truthful answer That's coming back from your memory recall now if I turn around to you and say rich I want you to picture a purple unicorn that can breathe flames that's got big feathered wings and I'm going to watch where your eyes go over to the right and then over to the left. So again, that's where your creative memory is. 27:39.39 Rich Gall Okay. 27:41.55 GAVIN STONE So that's going to allow me then to say right? He's now creating something because other than probably I don't think there's probably ever been a time in your life where you've had to create that that image in your mind. Um, yep, So so you need something pretty unique or something you know that they're going to be either. You know, deceptive about to to or have to create. 27:49.22 Rich Gall I Was that was rather unique. Yeah. 28:00.83 GAVIN STONE Ah, to be able to kind of um, gauge and it could be anything imagine boish like being married to X or whatever the case may be um and then once you've got that creative memory you then know if you ask them a question if I go back to you and say so you know rich tell me about this and you you'll always go up and left up and right I know that you're. Bringing something back from your memory whereas if if they do what they did when ask you to to think of a purple whatever it was then then then I know that your create I'm glad you remember can't remember myself what it was um. 28:26.64 bizzyweb Purple unicorn that blue but blue fire out of its butt I think it was yeah. 28:37.20 GAVIN STONE But yeah, you to get the same eye actions then that basically is letting me know that you're creating something you're making something up more so than than you know recalling it from your memory. So the I accessing oh accessing qs side of it is absolutely brilliant. The pentagon did spend a hell of a lot of time and money disproving it. Um. Um, the reason it didn't work for the pentagon they were testing it on soldiers and they were asking standard questions that soldiers don't really need to think about because they've been drilled that many times this is here this is there. This is how we do that they don't need to think about it and and the other side of it was they wanted a clear map. They wanted yoke. You always go up and right when you're lying and up and left when you're remembering and it doesn't work like it's different for each person so you have to baseline them each time to know what their bodies. What is standard for them. So so that was why it didn't work and that was why it's been kind of dismissed a lot over the years and had a lot of bad press. But if it's done properly and you do make your own map for each person. It's absolutely brilliant for getting an idea as to whether Somebodys been truthful or not so that's that's your kind of eyeaxsing queuees. Um, then like I said the the main thing is you're looking for change. You know if you were to say to me. Yeah Gavin if you're working in telling you now go? yeah. Go you work in security I go yeah and you go um you're working hot air bloom sales and I go yeah, then there's a difference. My pitch has changed my body language has changed. My tone has changed. Yeah, my answers changed. So so if you you're looking for that different response and generally if you can kind of. 30:10.29 GAVIN STONE Clusters of 3 or more one singular change might just be coincidentally you know if they're scratching an itch and you think oh he covered his mouth is ah is a tell but if they're scratching an itch while they give a different tone a different pitch change a different speed a different answer then you're looking more along the lines of okay, there's a cluster of tells now and those are more. Indicators of deception. 30:30.27 bizzyweb How much of an indicator is Deception. We rich and I work and live in a I would say is probably the passive aggressive capital of the world where people are just politely trying to get you out in Scenarios as opposed to. Let you down or tell you the truth which is no I don't want to buy from you. You know, please go away so they'll say things like oh well, you know, send me a proposal or I'll think about it or things like that. So if we're feathering in a certain amount of passive Aggressiveness does that does the body language change reveal more. 30:52.47 GAVIN STONE Um, we. 31:06.85 bizzyweb Then what people are saying. 31:08.64 GAVIN STONE Yeah, it can do you've got you've got to look ah like the whole conversation and this is what just goes back to Baseline in the especially if you're online and you can see them look at what's normal for them and and if they're normally giving your eye contact the entire time. While you're talking and you know and you turn around and say right? You know this? this is my pitch and they go Yes, send me an email and all of a sudden.. They're not giving you that same eye contact. They're looking away. Um, you know that the change is different so that that again is is kind of indicating that they're They're really not that interested. 31:43.45 bizzyweb So if I'm in a meeting online. Um, and I can tell that I've lost somebody they're they're they're ah looking up in a way. They're clearly not looking and they're looking over here. They're not even looking at the camera anymore. How do I buying a book on there. 31:49.68 GAVIN STONE Um. 31:56.18 Rich Gall Ordering the book on Amazon. 31:56.33 GAVIN STONE Um. 31:59.21 bizzyweb Ah, buying a book on um Amazon Six Mx and the unforgiven buying as well as how to tell somebody's lying you? Um, what? Um, what are some strategies that you can utilize to get them back on I Yeah I care goal. 32:03.70 GAVIN STONE Um. 32:14.20 GAVIN STONE So there's a couple of yeah I mean you, there's a couple of things you can do and um, what I tend to do with with something like this is is default to taking the blame I got you know what? I'm really sorry you know what I've had a late night last night and I'm probably doing a dreadful job of explaining this. Do. Do you do you understand what? I mean does that make sense and straight away. They've got to start thinking about everything that you've just said they've got to come back to you god ah yeah, yeah, it does't you know? Ah so you're kind of you've you've moved the blame away from you from from them. You know because you've they've wandered off in their own little world. And and taking it onto yourself and you've got their attention back and as soon as you've got their attention back. You can then kind of pick up where you're left off make a note on this somewhere. 32:58.66 Rich Gall We lost him drink me. 33:00.24 bizzyweb No, he's just looking away. 33:01.99 GAVIN STONE Sorry um, ah yeah, and that was it So I did make a quick note there as well. Ah, so that was what I was looking back for um, the the other way is again to ask them how that how it could be improved. Yeah, so ask them how they would have done it. Um, and get their opinion. People. Love to give their own opinion on something and how many how many times of people you know if if I was running the country or running the world. This is how how things would be.. Everybody's got their own unique idea of how much better things will be done if they were doing it. 33:35.99 bizzyweb So I know one of the things that rich and I really want to get back to and 2024 is actually meeting people in person. So um, from a from a ah elementary level. What are some basic. 33:42.56 GAVIN STONE Um, even. 33:50.72 bizzyweb Body movements that people make then what are when what do they mean when when people do them So like. For instance I know that I've got my arms crossed right now which usually means that I'm I'm disengaged. It doesn't in this case because my hands are cold. But what? what? What are some things that. 34:04.90 GAVIN STONE Um, yeah. 34:07.90 bizzyweb People who aren't in the intelligence Community Ah don't have the the level of um ah knowledge that rich and I do about what those kind of things means what are some things that people can look out for. 34:19.69 GAVIN STONE Certainly So I like the fact that you mentioned that you got your arms folded because that that happens a lot peopleop say oh does that mean, somebody's being defensive and this is the exact reason why there is no body language dictionary that there's no direct translation of you know if he puts his hands here and here it means x. The the truth of the matter is there's so many different reasons you can fold your arms because it could be because you've been Defensive. It could be because you're bored. It could be because your hands are cold. It could be for any number of things. So What you have to do like say look for what's normal for that person. So if they don't normally fold their arms and all of a sudden they do when they're answering a question. That's when you're gonna say okay was that something I said or was it because it's cold was it because of the circumstances but to to answer your question about the um, the default there are a few things that you can look for especially in sales. Um, one of the most important ones is if anybody puts something in their mouth if they've got a penny. Put it in their mouth while that while they're you know, thinking about signing the line or even if it's a finger hair in in the mouth if they get their pony tail from around the back of the head and then they're putting it in their mouth anything along those lines. That's a need for reassurance. So The minute you is anything going in the mouth. Um I'm want to keep it clean. 35:29.17 bizzyweb And. Yeah, 9 in the workplace area. Yeah. 35:35.83 GAVIN STONE Ah, anything going in the middle. Yeah um, is it Yeah in the workplace setting um is ah is a need for reassurance that there's some doubt somewhere niggling in the mind and and whether this dates back To. Um. As a baby for feeding and and and whether it's got anything to do with like yeah when you give a kid a pacifier it kind of makes them feel but as as says in the name. Um and paify. You know whether it relates back to that and and something to do with the psychology of feeding as a baby as a form of reassurance I don't I don't know that's just ah, a guess. But yeah that that's a ah universal for pretty much. Yeah, everybody so not not to be confused with when flirting's going On. So. 36:18.92 bizzyweb Job. What what are some other common ones that people can learn from. 36:26.50 GAVIN STONE So Come On. You're generally looking if if people are open if if they've got an nice open posture. Um, then then generally that means they're comfortable and relaxed if they have the closed Posture. You know if they are kind of crossing their arms or turning away from you that kind of thing then then that is. More of an area of concern. Not always like I said could be anything to do with temperature and whatever else. So You do have to use a little bit of discretion on on where you draw your conclusions from. But if you watch for the feet then you they will tell you more than anything because if you're standing. Yeah. 36:59.32 bizzyweb Um, the fruit. 37:02.89 GAVIN STONE If you so Tsa yeah, agents are actually trained to look when you go to the desk with your passport and they they're looking at your passport. They'll sometimes lean over the desk to see which way your feet are pointing and the reason being if the feet are pointing towards the counter is telling them that they're okay, there's nothing to worry about. But if their peat feet are angle towards the exit while their body is facing the counter. They'll be like ah what's going on here. Yeah because if their feet are saying I want to get out of it I want to get to the exit but their body saying yeah just give me so so yeah if you're if if the if the person's feet are facing 1 way but their body's facing the other or they're not giving you that kind of ah you know, squared. 37:23.44 Rich Gall Interesting. 37:29.82 bizzyweb Um, okay. 37:41.25 GAVIN STONE Um, and again this is very very different for men. So I've got to be a little bit careful here if you stand face to face with a man you will you will watch them turn there will there will kind of angle their bodies. Um, so men generally tend to do that whereas if you're Face-toface is he's kind of threatening. Whereas if you're kind of next to each other or angleled slightly then then it's it's it's less aggressive so you know if your feet are facing forward then that's great. But if if the guy feet at a point in a way that generally means because they want to get away. 38:13.29 bizzyweb Okay, and so if if if if rich and I are are are having a ah face to face moment and 1 of us turns slightly does that what does that tell you. 38:23.99 GAVIN STONE So If you if it's just a turn its generally. So if if you're face- To-face. It's like I say it's very confrontational whereas if you just turn slightly all that says is that you're you're disengaging that confrontation. So You know you're you're not in an argumentative mold. It's very friendly. Um, but so if you turn away slightly no problem at all. But if you are kind of you know, turned away slightly but your feet are of facing a completely different direction. Especially you know, kind of towards an exit then that that that's your your sign that um you know you want to go? you've had enough. 38:58.91 bizzyweb That's fascinating I'm gonna start looking at people's feet more. But. 39:01.61 GAVIN STONE Yeah, definitely pay attention and and it'll it'll give you ah ah more of a sign as to what's going on in their mind. Ah yeah, 1 more what else have got um body language wise. So um, yeah, so look for. 39:05.66 bizzyweb So that's two can you give us 1 more. 39:15.87 GAVIN STONE If If you're at let's say a desk or a table. Um and look for something which you've known in the Trader's digital Flexion. So if their Palms are like flat on the table. Um, and you ask a particular question and all of a sudden their Palms go from being flat to to kind of their fingers curling in that's generally a sign ah of an uncomfortable. Feeling So The more uncomfortable somebody gets the more the fingers will curl until that uncomfortable goes to a level of aggression to become a fist. So The yeah, the more it becomes a fist the more the levels of discomfort are increasing. 39:41.70 bizzyweb And. 39:49.30 GAVIN STONE Ah, the more relaxed somebody is the more open somebody is the more the hands will be with the fingers splayed and and kind of just kind of chilled out because it's it's it's not.. It's not something you're going to do in a threatening situation is have your fingers flat whereas obviously in a threatening situation. You will have your fist clenched ready to attack so or at least some people will. Um, so so this is um so that's how it works you know, look look look for what the hands are doing in regards to all the fingers curling in or are they nice and you know relaxed in in in their posture. 40:20.68 bizzyweb That's amazing and I'm sure we can read more about that in your lexicon of books tell us about the new book the fiction book. 40:28.51 GAVIN STONE Okay, so I've written a book called the unforgiven spy which is my debut fiction novel. Um and it is. It's gotten more spy tradecraft in it than any other fiction novel I've ever known or read so there's a lot of like. Kind of Tom Clancy or or some of the other big nouns out there have given little bits of tradecraft I've crammed as much tradecraft as I could into this which has hopefully some of it never been out before deliberately and in and an attempt to try and get it banned so because if I get it banned. It will go straight. 40:57.37 bizzyweb Um, ah. 41:00.24 GAVIN STONE He' go straight to number one so you so yeah, that was um I was quite lucky um, and um, it never got banned although there is a little secret that I do reveal out there from the yeah from the freemasons and and again it was kind of ah a little bit of I think I thought hopefully the freemasons will will. Create about it and I thought what? what a great headline you know Freemason secret society call for gavin stone's book to be banned for revealing secrets. But no yeah, even they've left me alone. Um, so so the publicity. Yeah, um, that that I had planned um, you know, kind of didn't go exactly the way I wanted it to. 41:26.77 bizzyweb Um, ah. 41:38.00 GAVIN STONE But the the book itself will speak for itself and and a lot of people will hopefully learn some great tricks from it. 41:43.69 bizzyweb That's amazing I don't know a freemason under the age of 60 Do you rich. 41:46.10 Rich Gall I Don't my grandfather was a freemason and he tried recruiting my uncles and my dad and myself into it and we're like I hang around with a bunch of old people. No. 41:57.35 GAVIN STONE See Maybe I might I might have found my call in there now for recruitment for the freemasons I can go and kind of feel help help teach them to pitch better. 41:57.86 bizzyweb I I. 42:02.46 Rich Gall There you go. 42:09.20 bizzyweb Hey everybody gets an apron and a bell who who and the spaghetti dinner who wouldn't want to sign up all right I wanted to go over 1 last thing before you ah but before we bring off Gavin is one of the books that you have is is really all about lie detection. So can you give us. 42:13.81 GAVIN STONE Um. 42:21.81 GAVIN STONE Listen. 42:25.24 bizzyweb And and I think the book is invaluable and I think just about anybody who deals and I a a person facing job should read it and it's a quick read too I think it's good I think it's helpful I thought I found it. Can you give us a couple of ways you can tell if somebody's lying to you. 42:40.78 GAVIN STONE Sure so what? I'll do because the book itself is based on something that a kind of a term of coin called Cca which is combined communicational analysis. So it's a mixture of I've got a background in psychology body language statement analysis that kind of thing and I've put it all together. To be able to help people decep detect deception. So there are several things you can go down like for example, if you ask somebody hey have you seen my wallet or have you stolen my wallet have you stolen money out the drawer. First of all listen for the word. No. It doesn't matter what comes after the word. No as much just listening for the word. No because if you if you turn around you say hey have you stolen my wallet and they go I don't even know where you keep your wallet. They haven't said no, it's not a denial It's an answer but it's not a denial. So sometimes people are given an answer that will pacify the person asking without actually denying and that comes down to ah humans inherently don't want to lie we we know it's wrong. We know it's bad sometimes we have to you know like when you your other half turns around say does my asswork fat in this, you've you've got to tell those little white lies from time to time um but um you know the most of the time we yeah we don't want to lie. We don't like to and because of that we try and avoid lying and because we you know look kind of avoid lying. We look for little clauses so that little kind of clause of saying well I don't even know where you keep your wallish means that you haven't denied it. You haven't lied. 44:12.84 GAVIN STONE You've just said something that might be true. You might not know where you normally keep your wallet so it it prevents them from saying an out now. No so that's more from the statement analysis side of it. 44:23.28 bizzyweb And I know enough about body language and how to read people digitally that I can tell that rich has tried to remember where his wallet is right now without look without look or there it is perfect. Awesome! get. 44:36.95 GAVIN STONE But hey there you go. so um so yeah yeah so you you you know you look, you're looking for the no and if you don't get the no ask yourself why? So that's the first thing look for anything that is completely out of the ordinary. 44:40.93 bizzyweb Yeah, think yeah, keep going. 44:52.46 GAVIN STONE You know? So when I said earlier about we're looking for change if you ask somebody you know a question you know, did you take any money at the tin and all of a sudden they start screaming and shouting and going wild. Ask yourself is that is that how they normally react because of the answers. No Then why. Um, so these ah and and a lot of these do seem like common sense things but sometimes we overlook it because of our natural desire to believe in people we we don't want to admit to ourselves that our friend or colleague might have stolen our money or our phone or our wallet or whatever. So We we kind of tend to try to. Believe in the answer that they give us. 45:28.23 bizzyweb So that that that that non definitive answer is telling in some way or another. 45:33.65 GAVIN STONE And um, and and because because of our our natural biases. You know we do buy into stories and this in itself is something that um, Lina Cisco a friend of mine she turns around and says that truth truth tellers convey. Lawyers convince so truth tellers will convey you what happened because they've got truth on their side so they don't need to worry about it. They can just say this is what happened or no I didn't know whatever the case may be whereas lawyers will tell you a story and and and come up with all manner of things I've heard it time and time again. Do you know what kind of a person I am do you know how many. Years of work for this company. Do you know Ah yeah, what? what? I do on a Sunday do you know Ah yeah, and you get all these kind of crazy. You know, kind of what they call, um, not testimonials. What's the word for them. Um resume statements. You know. I'm such ah, an outstanding phenomenal citizen that you know I couldn't possibly be accused of stealing something and and those resume statements they're they're huge red flags. 46:37.37 bizzyweb Interesting rich a we're gonna wrap up pretty soon anything you want to ask and by the way Buffy please peace for free and cut this question that I I said rich go for it. 46:48.53 Rich Gall Yeah, um, okay yeah, but what do spies do after they get to the out of the intelligence business other than write books Of course. 46:51.31 GAVIN STONE Um, yeah. 46:55.64 GAVIN STONE Ah, yeah, go to say in my case, become an author. So um, the majority of them tend to go on like a lot of the guys at m I six go to a company called hackloot or they're going to some kind of private intelligence company. There's lots of private intelligence companies now where they can work as a consultant or. Um, generally get paid a hell of a lot more for doing a hell of a lot less in the private sector. Ah you get some of them that go down the route of sales because let's face it if you can get somebody to commit treason in an afternoon you can generally talk them into buying a buick. Um, and then the other side of it is ah. Is is they'll go down the author route and they'll they'll write fictional stories. Um, that are kind of um, generally ah, a recap of their career or they'll they'll put you know a mixture of different events that they've done from experiencing into a book hoping it will become a film or whatever the case may be and and again. Sometimes go down the route of of Tv. Yeah, so yeah, we were on about um, watch it earlier I forgot the name of the series now but they they had so burn load? Yeah, but um, yeah, they had somebody in from from Cia to say look how how does this normally work teach us the tradetra so we can make this realistic. 47:58.62 bizzyweb Burn. Not you talking about your it like just like. 48:11.16 GAVIN STONE Yeah, so we. 48:13.30 bizzyweb What one of my all-time. Favorite movies is a spy movie called spy game with Robert Redford and and to god I love god I love that movie a final question Gavin I know ah in the near future. You are moving out of the U K and India the United States what 48:18.70 GAVIN STONE Ah, yeah. 48:29.70 GAVIN STONE Um, eventually yeah. 48:30.66 bizzyweb When I need to buy a new car. Will you come with? excellent, excellent all right. Gavin is the author of how to tell if someone is lying available on all your major book retailers and his new book is called the unforgiven spy. 48:31.88 GAVIN STONE Certainly no problem at all. 48:48.65 bizzyweb And I know rich and I have a lot more reading that we have to do? Thanks thanks for joining us Gavin. 48:51.27 GAVIN STONE No problem. Thank you for having me. 48:55.96 Rich Gall It's been great.