00:00.00 bizzyweb All right I'm gonna ask you an easy question Dave with an obvious answer. What was the best hire you've ever made. 00:03.41 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who I like those. Wow. So Now you're getting into a tough question disguised as an easy Question. So I I feel like yeah I I feel like that. But I can't let you off the hook that easy. So I'll have to think of somebody else. But. 00:14.66 bizzyweb Well, it's it's a trap. The obvious answer is me. 00:27.38 bizzyweb Yeah, well the reason I mentioned it is because I'm I'm going on 10 years at busy web working in business development which is a pretty rare thing to have somebody be that good for that long and. 00:27.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb While we do. Why don't we get into the podcast. 00:34.32 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 00:41.80 bizzyweb In this day and age one of the things that everybody is challenged with is finding good hires. Let alone finding great sales hires and figuring out What do you need to do and what really makes a ah good salesperson tick. So. 00:53.26 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah. 00:56.16 bizzyweb I'm honored that we were able to go completely deep into the pool and find one of the great experts in the industry about that. Our guest today is Jonathan Porter Wisman he is the author of the book. The sales boss which is. 01:10.38 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 2 01:13.46 bizzyweb Ah, the real the real secret to hiring training and managing a sales team. He is ah also the head ah of 2 different companies one of which is called who hire which is a datadrive analysis to finding your good hire and also perception predact. 01:31.56 bizzyweb Which is I can't even do it. Justice is in an intro but it's just he's doing fascinating work. So thanks for joining us John. 01:36.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, I mean welcome. 01:37.45 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, excellent I'm looking forward to it and with your expertise in the marketing space. You know when you spend time in organizations doing sales and sales consulting. There's always that question like what's the difference between sales and marketing and. 01:50.89 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yes. 01:53.50 Jonathan Whistman The truth is. There's this very intricate dance that has to happen between both or neither of them work effectively. So this I'm looking forward to this conversation. 01:58.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Absolutely oh good. Fantastic. 02:01.82 bizzyweb That's a great and that's a great place to start because as you just said that I a light bulb went off in my head and I thought oh God What is the difference between sales and marketing. So How I would think about it is this and and I'd be curious to get your take. Ah, marketing is the effort of getting somebody from from not knowing you to saying Yes I'd like to talk and and then sales is the is the is the art of getting that person who says yes I'm interested and would like to learn more. 02:22.76 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 02:34.37 bizzyweb To here's some money for a good or service. 02:36.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure. Okay. 02:38.40 Jonathan Whistman I I can I can go with that definition. The you know the old school definition is marketing makes the phone ring and sales is what happens afterwards. But so much of sales now doesn't necessarily even require a phone. 02:51.71 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 02:53.51 Jonathan Whistman And so I think we have to redefine that I I know when I'm working inside of an an organization and they have good marketing rhythms in place which means they're known in the community they need to be known in It's really the level of trust that exists there that makes the job of the sales team so much easier because they're they're not having to convince. They're not having to drag people along. Um, they're they're already positioned as the expert. So I think of it as if if you know if your're a company is a stage play on Broadway Marketing is sort of the set and the lighting and it creates the mood for the entire audience when they come in and makes you receptive to the actor and the play. 03:21.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For. 03:30.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb We. 03:38.65 Jonathan Whistman If you've ever gone into you know, sort of an Off-broadway play that has a low budget. You automatically like your standard sort of goes down because the sets great and the lighting's not that great and the audio quality is not that great. So that's where I think that getting that right is that it's it sort of sets the mood. 03:44.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So. 03:55.47 bizzyweb I I Love that can I steal that Oh awesome. 03:58.40 Jonathan Whistman Um, sure you can you can steal it. Yeah and I so and I stole it I just remember from who. 03:58.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Well if if you weren't going to I was going to because that's that's brilliant and I've never heard that sad I love it. Oh right on better than cats. Yeah. 04:07.90 bizzyweb Well fantastic. Well thank you to whoever gave that to John I we could give it all all of us you you are? Ah I think an industry well known in the industry as being an expert as identifying good quality talent. So. Talk us through what what are the? What are sort of the 5 indicators that people really need to look at when they're what they're hiring somebody I 5 I picked a random number. But how do you How do you find good people in this day and age. 04:34.32 Jonathan Whistman Yeah that's you know that's a great question and and almost every area of the business. There's metrics right? So there's sales metrics. There's marketing metrics if you're in the finance department. They've got accounting and you got to hit all your kpis, but for some reason. Every company goes. We need to have great people. We need to make great hires but the cost of a bad hire and that turnover doesn't show up on anybody's p and l statement as a line item responsibility you know to to ah a specific you know it doesn't end up under Dave's thing even though Dave pays for it right? as the business owner. So when you say what are the 5 things interestingly I think ah probably if I had to split it just randomly if you chose the number 5 randomly I would say 3 of them have nothing to do with the actual candidate. It has to do with. 05:25.27 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, if do have. 05:26.56 Jonathan Whistman The the organization and are you equipped as an organization to really understand what do you need and to support growth and to support somebody doing their best work because people come and stick and stay in an organization as long as they believe. They can still do their best work in life doing it for you because people want to do good work. They want to thrive they they you know they don't want to be on a treadmill so you can fix. 05:46.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 05:46.31 bizzyweb Please. 05:56.64 Jonathan Whistman A lot of your turnover and a lot of your performance problems just by fixing sort of sort of your company I remember going into an organization in the Midwest that had an atrocious ah turnover problem and that was one of the things that they wanted me to to help them with and I. 06:07.56 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 06:14.20 Jonathan Whistman Flew in to to to just go through as a candidate their process and I flew in and went into the got into the airport and they had booked me in the worst hotel in town. Some are a sort of you know and then in the morning I find my way over. 06:26.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh no, yeah, the home. 06:34.70 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, to the hr office and the doors still locked. Ah 10 minutes later the hr manager comes in fumbling around keys in the lock gets in ask me to sit outside their office and the office has magazines that are a year old it's sort of dusty. 06:40.28 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah. 06:52.41 Jonathan Whistman Like right away and I just share that as an example of you know your your applicants are already making a judgment. It's about you So in my book. The sales boss I talk about um that that in your and I'll go back to the idea I used for marketing. It's a stage play. 06:52.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, my goodness. Yeah mean. 07:11.56 Jonathan Whistman In this case, put on by a psychologist like you have to really think about your people you're bringing into your organization and I would argue this also includes your employees even more so and you need to be answering the question. What do I need them to think what do I want them to feel. And what do I want them to do as a result so when they walk through your office. What do you want them thinking. What do you want that feeling to be right? And that's visual. It's Kinesthetic. It's how does it smell. It's like. 07:42.22 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 07:45.33 Jonathan Whistman It's all of those sort of things together and the problem is when we live in ah in a building every single day we start just looking past the roughness of it right? I remember when I moved into the house I'm in it really bothered me. There's a piece of tile right inside our front area and the grout is gone and it bugged me every day. 07:52.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? yep. 08:04.65 Jonathan Whistman And now I don't even notice it right? and and so those would be the I would just bunch a bunch of things into those sort of 3 buckets and then the other two really get into ah being up close and personal with understanding what it what is the. 08:04.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, yep. 08:24.47 Jonathan Whistman Belief system of the person that you're hiring and what I mean by that is things are only good or bad by comparison like you think about when you think something's great in life. You're always comparing it to something you experienced in the past I remember my first car right? I thought it was a. 08:33.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 08:43.18 Jonathan Whistman Was an okay car. But when I would rent a car I always thought it was an awesome vehicle because it was better than the car I drove right? and and and and then time passes and there's not many rental cars that I like to rent now because it's just standards have changed. 08:47.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? yeah. 08:56.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 4 08:58.89 Jonathan Whistman Right? And so when you're hiring somebody and this goes outside of sales into any role is you really need to uncover how do they define great because if you can define how they define how they came to their definition of great. 09:09.58 bizzyweb And. 09:17.72 Jonathan Whistman All of a sudden you're in a position a to influence that if you need to but you really want to hire people whose definition of great is as close to yours as possible or as close to what you need in that role right? So you even just think about compensation. 09:20.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 3 09:27.68 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yes. 09:34.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 09:37.90 Jonathan Whistman Great compensation for you as the business owner is different than an entry level person but you have to know how do they define great and and and plug into that. What does it allow them to accomplish in their life. 09:43.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 09:48.43 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I love that well and as as we go through Jonathan I think yeah, the example that you that you shared about walking into an office and you know the the magazines are dusty and you know the experience. The customer experience is a little off. It it got really weird in the past couple of years because almost everything has gone at least partially virtual so one of the things that we're seeing with our customers I think is that there's a lot more weight placed on the digital experience for a customer and maybe the interactions that come in. So are there ways or are there things that you're doing when you're connecting with your customers that help to instill that trust and confidence and lower the barriers from a digital perspective. 10:38.31 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, well you play in this space all the time right? So your your front door is your website and your your marketing. So the nice thing is you can sort of craft that but I would say they still get dusty over time. So how do we keep it fresh. How do we keep it interesting. 10:45.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 10:50.86 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right are. 10:57.80 Jonathan Whistman Um, and I write about this in my book. Even the email communication I Give to an incoming candidate is leaving an impression about who we are as a company so word choice and language is very important. So I'm placing all of those things you know on the business side of it. 11:13.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 11:14.95 Jonathan Whistman Where I'm really excited with the work that I'm doing with perception predict and who hire is just a product of perception predict just for ah you know minor clarity there What we're doing at perception is we're doing large-s Scalele data models that blend this whole world of Io Psychology and psychographics. 11:34.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah. 11:35.20 Jonathan Whistman There's a massive amount of well-researched what makes people operate how do they think? how do they experience stress and we've created an inventory of about 450 items that we can reliably measure. So we go into an organization or an industry and we literally assess thousands and thousands of people so we get this really intricate picture of what makes them up and science says that about 70% of performance is baked into us. It's our the the way we are. 12:03.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure yeah. 12:08.92 Jonathan Whistman Structured and you would know that's true when you look at a star athlete or a star musician. There is something fundamentally wired differently about somebody that can do that So we're getting that rich psychographics. But on the other side we're ingesting actual performance data. So if it was sales. 12:14.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 12:25.55 Jonathan Whistman You know how many deals are they closing? what's their clothes. What's what is the close rate how many new opportunities and we're feeding that into a machine learning engine. So we're narrowing down that pool of psychographics to say hey these are really the only thing eighteen things or 20 things matter. 12:27.29 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Trick. 12:40.57 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb The the. 12:43.73 Jonathan Whistman For your company for that role for that individual. We call it a performance fingerprint so you can deploy it on the frontend of the hiring process candidate takes 10 minute assessment roughly maybe 20 if it's depending on ah the role and we output a prediction they're going to sell. 12:46.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay. 12:52.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Hey. 12:58.96 Jonathan Whistman Two hundred and seventy five a quarter or they're going to last in your company for eighteen months 13:02.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Wow. 13:05.34 bizzyweb 1 of the things that I know perception predict really works. Well in is is identifying ah great people in automotive sales. So what are some of the ways that what are some of those psychographics that. Fit that model for and I know everybody. There's so many different variables on that. But what are some of the the standards. 13:24.13 Jonathan Whistman Um, yeah, yeah, every yeah, So the ah it's It's not just automotive sales. It's really any kind of role. Ah, in any organization because you're only looking at 2 things human data like what makes us tick who we are right? You think about our abstract reasoning our emotional resilience our curiosity our coping skills our interpersonal versatility. Those are all psychographics. And then some sort of data like what's the output the employer needs and we're just meshing those together. So when you talk about like ah in Automotive we're able to predict how many car sales somebody will sell pre-hire. But interestingly it's different brand to brand. Company to company so somebody that does really well selling a luxury brand has sort of a different psychographic profile than somebody that's selling. Maybe you know an an entry level brand and that becomes a nice insight for organizations because many Auto dealers. 14:18.43 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 14:31.27 Jonathan Whistman Have multiple brands under their umbrella and so they already have incoming candidates to be able to place them in the role that makes sense for them and we find that in also Enterprise companies where they might have a variety of roles from an enterprise sales to sort of commercial sales to customer success. 14:31.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 14:46.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 14:50.13 Jonathan Whistman Might have somebody come in and apply in 1 role and they say you know what this person actually is less ah fit for this role, but we have a great place for them over here where they're really thrive. 14:58.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure? Sure Well I suppose that could be in like instead of even just different kinds of brands or different luxury levels for Auto sales for like a B Two B Services company that like busy web serves it might be different stages in the buyers journey when people are either. Just researching and having connections or when they're ready to make decisions or engaging with different levels of executives as we get closer to the purchase decision right. 15:28.43 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, so we do a lot of sales roles. A lot of customer success roles leadership roles within organizations. But how we how we really differ what the you know the sort of the next evolution is there's been personality assessments out there for decades will think Disc Myers Briggs 15:45.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, yeah, ah. 15:48.10 Jonathan Whistman Ah, the pi which really focuses on you know the big 5 personality traits. It's sort of introversion extroversion and some sort of cognitive but it's sort of limiting like if you wanted to make. Ah, ah you know, ah, let's say you went into a really nice restaurant and you had the perfect meal. 15:53.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 16:04.68 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb E. 16:06.78 Jonathan Whistman But you just had this dish if you tried to go home and recreate that would you rather have 3 ingredients personality and you know introversion extroversion and cognitive or would you rather have this 550 ingredients where you could really dial it in. You're probably going to right have. 16:21.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 16:24.57 Jonathan Whistman Have more success doing that and furthermore the way you sort of amp that up is to to to not only have those ingredients but have data tell you which of them are important and I have some great stories about insights from those kinds of studies that we've done that have been really surprising to people. 16:27.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 16:36.24 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah. 16:40.67 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, please tell tell me more because this is is path waiting. Yeah. 16:42.22 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah, let's start Eric because I I that the ability to model out performance I think is such a a unique concept that I want to give us and give us 1 of those examples of this how you were surprised. 16:57.85 Jonathan Whistman Here's a here's a controversial statement if somebody's sincere. They're going to churn out of your organization faster than an insincere person now. 17:09.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, oh yeah. 17:10.39 bizzyweb Wyatt. 17:11.47 Jonathan Whistman When you're interviewing somebody and they sit across from you and they're really sincere. What do you think I love this I want somebody who's going to shoot me straight right? They feel like you know you want to go out and have a beer with them now I'm going to back up that statement's only true for cleaning companies. 17:14.67 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, these are great people. Yeah yeah, ah ah. 17:14.73 bizzyweb This is a great highland. 17:29.83 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A a. 17:29.88 Jonathan Whistman For the for the cleaner. So again, remember every job. Every role is different but we did a really deep research study. The largest that's been done on the planet for cleaning companies and your cleaning technician the more sincere they are. 17:32.45 bizzyweb What I or yet. 17:38.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay, so. 17:45.50 Jonathan Whistman The the faster they churn out of the organization Now you know curiosity gets ahold year like I wonder why? that's the case and the truth is it doesn't really matter why it's true. It just matters that the data says it's true. 17:58.69 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, in right. 18:01.00 Jonathan Whistman Now there's all sorts of reasons when we talk to owners of cleaning companies. They say well that sort of makes sense if they're in the home and the homeowner's having a bad day. They have a really hard time putting on a smiley face and sort of faking it with the homeowner. But that's actually what's required. 18:11.46 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh sure. Yeah. 18:16.17 Jonathan Whistman And when they're really sincere. They tend to take things personal. So but that's that's really just an intellectual exercise to say why does this data point make sense and and the truth is it doesn't have to make sense in order to give you really good results and so when we work with. 18:27.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I back. 18:36.60 Jonathan Whistman Cleaning organizations for a technician. We now have a fingerprint that predicts how are they going to do in the cleaning role from a technical can can do the job will get good customer reviews. But also what's their flight risk and one of the things you know that feeds into that's not just sincerity. There's a whole host of other. 18:44.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You sure. 18:54.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For. 18:56.23 Jonathan Whistman Entrepreneurial intent and other things that we're measuring but those are the kinds of things that you find really fascinating. We were doing a retail store I won't mention the name of the company here just I don't like to air people's laundry but they they think people selling like cell phones or. 19:08.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I think. Sure. 19:13.74 Jonathan Whistman Digital products and in a retail setting and they had a 50% churn problem within the first sixty day so people would come in and 50% of their hires walk right out the door within fifty days and the half of the people they kept were missing their quota by more than 50% so massive problem for them. They super experienced at hiring and they had a really well-defined hiring process and it centered sort of around and think these are really probably your early career roles right? Somebody selling cellphones is not. You don't got a lot of job history to go off of. 19:33.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ouch yeah, who. 19:43.55 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 19:50.30 Jonathan Whistman But so they would look at 2 things 1 was customer orientation. So how are they going to treat the customer or do they have a customer mindset and the second was do they love technology and if they love technology and they're going to treat the customer right? We have great training program we can teach them the rest of it. So every stage of their interview process was really about scoring and getting insights into that. 19:52.93 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I. 20:09.66 Jonathan Whistman And so we assessed thousands of those retail agents doing that against our psychographics against their ah their performance data and lo and behold. We discover 0 correlation between customer orientation and success in the role 0 So. 20:16.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 20:22.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Customer Appropriate engagement Ha her. 20:29.28 Jonathan Whistman Where they spent all their energy didn't actually move the needle form now. It doesn't mean you're not going to hire people to treat your customers right? But as as a filter it was the wrong filter and then more disturbing for the executives was we found a negative correlation between ah. 20:34.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? oh. 20:47.85 Jonathan Whistman Love of technology and success in the role meaning the more they love technology the worse they did and they had it completely backwards. Yeah, and yeah, so again, you go curious like I wonder why? that's the case and you know you could make some. 20:53.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb However. 20:54.33 bizzyweb But they're selling technology. 21:02.83 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, sure sure Yeah, um. 21:05.24 Jonathan Whistman Ah, suppositions about why that might be the case you might say hey you know they love technology so much they overwhelm them with features and benefits and the you know the customer leaves more confused than when they came in the door or they're so comfortable with technology they talk over the prospect's heads. The reality is it just doesn't matter. 21:10.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay. 21:17.73 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A a. 21:22.40 Jonathan Whistman Just matters that the data tells you that so I think in the what I'm really excited about is 1 drastically reducing that turnover rate for organizations. But I think more importantly. As an org as a company you're doing a disservice when you bring somebody in at least this the way I've been in every one of my businesses and I suspect. You know you you guys are the same for my previous conversations with you like that's your family that you're bringing in really, they're not like your blood family right? and I don't mean to enlighten that. But. 21:43.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, in it. 21:48.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right? he. 21:55.16 Jonathan Whistman You have a social contract with that person. They're going to provide value to your company and in return, you're going to provide value to their life in whatever way they do that that might be monetarily. It might be um, you know, being able to inspire them so they can be better mothers and fathers and givers in their community. And and when we mishire somebody we break that like when we have to let somebody go or when they quit because the stress of the job doesn't allow them to thrive. 22:17.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 22:27.90 Jonathan Whistman We've stolen a piece of their life from them that they can never get back and I don't think business owners take that. Seriously if you so you know so if if you waste 3 years of somebody's life. That's us plus the look at the damage. You've done to your business and your customers when you churn out of that role. So I think we're providing sort of a. 22:31.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Plan. 22:41.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? if. 22:42.57 bizzyweb Who. 22:46.52 Jonathan Whistman A short circuit to that? Yes, we're excluding people out of some roles but it's good for them and it's good for the company and we're also at the same time identifying people that could be a fit for the role that they might have never considered before because they didn't You know they didn't play sports or they didn't look this. You know. 22:49.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? It's the right roles. 23:03.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And then. 23:05.35 Jonathan Whistman Whatever the bias is the hiring manager has that they're putting into the hiring process and we're sort of fixing that. 23:10.60 bizzyweb I think I I think what you just talked about there. There's something that was sort of revelatory in my mind but also really hard to wrap my mind around which is you don't have to understand why the data is the way that it is to know that the data is so. 23:25.75 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, yeah. 23:28.84 bizzyweb Um, yes. 23:28.90 Jonathan Whistman Ah, do you do you run into that in your marketing for people like sometimes you yeah sometimes you test something you're like that's the one I least thought would work right? Color word choice layout and yet it doesn't matter if it works it works. 23:30.57 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh absolutely yeah, right? further right? right. 23:34.91 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah yeah, and and I I try and be truthful with people like do you know why? that happened no I didn but it did so um. 23:53.24 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, that's why we measure? yeah. 23:54.60 bizzyweb I think the immediate follow up that if I were in that hypothetical cell cell phone seller and you came to me and said that here is the data that's showing that the 2 things that you are really looking for in your sales to people aren't fundamentally what you need to be looking for I think my first impulse would be to deny the data. 24:12.34 Jonathan Whistman Um, yeah, yeah, it is. It is amazing at how revolted people are by data sometimes like they really trust their gut. 24:13.89 bizzyweb No, that can be right? So what? What is the next? yeah. 24:30.92 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, yeah. 24:31.62 Jonathan Whistman They think they are excellent and and this has to do with something called Recency Bias right? We tend to think like when we hire somebody and they do Well we pat ourselves on the back. We made a great choice right? We got it exactly right? We forget the bodies we left behind that churned out. 24:46.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb F one. 24:51.36 Jonathan Whistman And there's always another reason they you know they were lazy. They you know there's something it wasn't It's like we don't check the boxes say no, we really sucked at that that that hiring decision and and people tend to think that they're better judge of fit than they are. 24:58.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb If. 25:11.13 Jonathan Whistman Um, and so sometimes you can give people lots and lots of data and they they just sort of argue with and we've had plenty of ah ah clients where as an example I'll share one recently again I'm not going to front the company out because it was pretty personal. But. 25:17.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb It. 25:27.18 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 25:29.60 Jonathan Whistman They they use us to hire many of the roles in their organization and they had this one particular gal come in and all the executive leadership team interviewed her its best candidate ever and our score said like a 7% fit for the role I I have never seen a 7% like that's really bad. 25:45.75 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ouch yeah, ah. 25:46.55 bizzyweb Wow. 25:49.26 Jonathan Whistman Ah, and so you know they called me up well just something's got to be broken in your system and you know it's true. It's data like it's not. It's not a game of perfect. It's you're just predicting Trends right? and the idea is that you're going to place better bets more often more accurately and you know so we had discussion back and forth and we said we'll stand by that rating. 25:55.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb See right off. 26:09.19 Jonathan Whistman Ah, but make your own decision like you. You're all convinced that this is the role she was she was out of the organization within sixty days and here's the thing it wasn't that she would that she wasn't the best person to do that job. 26:17.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ouch, yeah. 26:25.60 Jonathan Whistman I believe she was she had done it for many organizations. The problem was there was such a mismatch between her and the way they operated that she was never going to thrive. It's like if you took a plant that needed a tropical environment and you stuck it out in the middle of Minnesota in the winter. 26:43.20 bizzyweb Yeah. 26:44.47 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah I. 26:44.78 Jonathan Whistman It doesn't matter that plant could be a great plan. It's just not going to thrive and you know what's interesting is if you think about company environments. There are people that thrive in dysfunction. You could have a completely dysfunctional company. 27:00.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure and they'd love it. Yeah. 27:03.35 Jonathan Whistman And there will be a certain amount of people that are a players in that environment. It is something about it drives them So what we really need to do is just find people that are comfortable in a dysfunctional environment and can thrive others do really well when the boss never calls. 27:05.85 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For this. 27:11.67 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? he. 27:19.16 Jonathan Whistman And they're sort of completely independent and there's no you know guardrails. No no, no coaching happening so that that's the magic of really understanding your company and why wouldn't you when when you when people Ch out of your organization. 27:21.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 27:37.50 Jonathan Whistman Since it's possible to have ah this really rich psychographic data and you already have performance data. Why wouldn't you be? ah you know banking that knowledge and that data and and having it almost like intellectual property. You know like an asset for your organization. 27:48.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 27:53.94 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 27:55.91 Jonathan Whistman The fact that they churned out of your organization if it didn't teach you anything then you really lost. But if you've churned through a hundred people. You should at least be a hundred times smarter about that role. 28:05.90 bizzyweb So what? what role does somebody's gut really playing in the hiring process should people trust their gut or or should it be a combination of gut and data. 28:06.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah, absolutely. 28:16.17 Jonathan Whistman Yeah I actually write about that in my book. You don't want to be you don't want to be known in your company as the datahead nobody loves the datahead you got to be human. So it's It's really a balance. 28:20.10 bizzyweb Um, yeah. 28:24.47 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 28:33.75 Jonathan Whistman What I have to I can't be data adverse I have to love data I have to be fluent in the data but I equally have to be able to take the human element and my gut and intuition and people and I've got to be able to blend that so when the data is telling me my gut's wrong I can't take offense. It should make me buckle down study harder think harder and at least know what risk I'm taking because sometimes you take a risk right? like I remember 1 of my early business mentors said you know don't don't ever I'll offend lawyers and accountants. But they said. 29:00.17 bizzyweb Okay. 29:00.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? prudent. 29:12.26 Jonathan Whistman Never ask your lawyer or your accountant how you should run your business because they don't run one most them are solo up entrepreneurs. Their job is to tell you what the risk is and what the opportunity is and then you take that risk right? Should you write off the fur coat that you call you know you're hanging in the back background as offices furniture. 29:15.91 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who right. 29:28.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb The. 29:32.59 Jonathan Whistman And people make various risk decision I think that's the role data has to play is an indicator of risk when I hire this person for this role. What's the risk I'm taking and I might decide the risk is worth it right? because they have ah they they have a lot of connections. They have. 29:43.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, and boom. 29:50.49 Jonathan Whistman Industry experience. You know there's There's a whole host of reasons that I might still make that choice. 29:52.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In it. 29:57.70 bizzyweb Ah, to me and in in selling in 2023 what I've sort of come to as a conclusion is that um money doesn't matter nearly as much as risk tolerance because I might be in a position where I'm in a buying. 30:08.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 8 30:15.13 bizzyweb Place but it's not necessarily my money. It's the company money. It's you know my owner's money something like that. But my main motivation isn't necessarily to get the best price. It's to make sure that I am. A not at risk for making this decision and that B that bet that you talked about is going to pay off for the company so that concept risk? Yeah, yeah, they're looking at making sure that if they make this decision. It's not going to come back and haunt them in any way. 30:33.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Moving. 30:39.20 Jonathan Whistman Um, you're you're saying you're saying from a buyer's perspective. Yeah. 30:42.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb That what. Like. 30:48.97 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, and I tend to say sometimes people are better buyers than we are sellers. You ever dealt with a salesperson like it's just miserable and but you need you need that service or product enough you buy anyway and I hate it when I do that because I'm like that salesperson is going around. 30:53.98 bizzyweb Yeah. 31:02.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right back some like that sales person is proud. Yeah. 31:07.67 Jonathan Whistman Like yeah I rock I'm a great salesper I'm sort of reinforced that I want to be like hey buddy I bought in spite of you not because of you. 31:12.83 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? right. 31:12.88 bizzyweb Right? Yeah I just had that with something that I bought where I felt like oh I realized I was running over this very nice kid and who was I kept asking what about this? What about this and he's just like well this is his voice would almost cryt. Well as I told you sir the first time like oh all, right. So yeah I'm I'm too much too much in on that. So starting back to the point. What are some? um. 31:36.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 31:36.18 Jonathan Whistman Do do you run into the same thing just I don't want to hijack the conversation but you know on ah on a hiring and ah um, um, ah you know I spent a lot of time in the hiring Realm and the sales ah realms. 31:41.11 bizzyweb And. 31:42.23 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb No is to go. 31:52.17 Jonathan Whistman Also, but in the marketing side. Do you find people also have an aversion to data or how do your customers usually respond and what sort of data. Do you do for them. 31:57.57 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah I think the the big thing that people in our experience. You know when when we're working with our clients at busy web and we're doing b to b sales. You know it's highly relationship based it's data can be. Disproved or counterpointed very easily so you have to be very careful with the kinds of data that you present. So if I say something that's an outlandish claim. Our product is 80% better than x product then people start saying well that smells funny right? So that kind of data where it's. This versus that tends to be counterproductive and instead what we find often is the service of removing barriers to entry is the kind of information not necessarily data. But. 32:55.25 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Feels like information is the content that people respond best to and this is over a B testing and you know you know using our data to prove to the client in the backend that can actually flip it. So I agree that data can be. Sometimes if it if you try to if you try to bury it with with data or if you try to just go like nobody cares How many years your company's been in business. They care about if you can solve the problem and so getting to those points as quickly as possible at least in B Two B seems to be the answer. 33:30.60 bizzyweb 1 of the what one of the most illuminating lessons of my life that I had I learned at busyzzweb where um, we we were doing lead generation marketing for a promotions company and I'm not gonna say who is and. 33:43.25 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 33:47.60 bizzyweb About six months into the program which all intents and purposes from a data standpoint was working like gangbusters. We were getting these folks 10 twenty thirty leads a month that were fantastic and we got fired and I said it's not working out none of this is working. Ah, we're not making any money and so ah, the person who was running the program is a very nice woman who works at busy web named Michelle she was crushed because she just didn't know what happened and so finally, ah it was driving me nuts because I I didn't understand how that data was working either because. We were getting all these leads and then as a result what what happened? So finally I went back and called the guy and said what can you tell me what happened they said? yeah you know you were giving us all these leads but they weren't ah converting I said well what were you doing to convert the leads. He said well every time somebody filled out a form on our website and said that they were really interested in working with us or anything that came from your marketing efforts we immediately mailed them a brochure and then they never called back like well. Okay, so. 34:54.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And undone. Yeah. 34:58.27 Jonathan Whistman Um, and did it on. 34:59.14 bizzyweb This is so as a result then what what I've tried to change when when we talk to people is an alignment of what success means to you. So if you hire us to give us a good lead. Get get you leads for your business b b two b service leads. Okay, great. What does that lead look like what are the elements that go into that because if I give you my mother-in-law's name did I do my job well on the 1 hand. Yes I gave you a lead a phone number and an email address of somebody to call. However, on the other hand very much. No. 35:27.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Group. 35:36.12 bizzyweb Because she should not be buying anything so finding the right fit and the right leads is is something that I think what people are much more interested in and using that's how we use data to to align in that respect. 35:49.70 Jonathan Whistman Um, I'm I'm curious did did I hear you say you had Prince as a client at one point. So I um, just you don't have to break client confidentiality. Although he'll probably forgive you at this point but I'm I'm curious were you behind the marketing study that. 35:54.35 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, yeah, we do move. 35:54.55 bizzyweb We only have death. 36:00.81 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 36:07.32 Jonathan Whistman Caused him to say the artists formerly known as I yeah I'm know just seeing I'm seeing seeing Dave sitting there saying no prince. This is really a good move just go with artists morally know that's. 36:12.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh yeah, that right I wish it I wish it was but we ah we built a website because he this is like in the very la he we built the last website before he passed away and so. He was well after that but he was trying to remove Itunes as the middleman and sell direct to consumer and so we built a website to sell his latest album direct and so it was very interesting and lots of lots of weird and enlightening conversations. 36:35.26 Jonathan Whistman Um, um. 36:47.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Over over walls because at that point he wasn't speaking with anyone except for 1 person so it was always a game of telephone over the phone but lots of lots of very interesting stuff. So yeah, no, no and it was. 36:56.69 Jonathan Whistman Um, yeah, so you didn't get a private. You didn't get a private concert out of the deal. 36:57.21 bizzyweb Just like Charlie Ros it's your night. 37:05.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb It was ah very very fun and it was a great story but you know that talk about a person who kind of leads and and interacts with the world differently than you would expect um very much. So so. 37:15.92 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, you know that in my book in a section of it I talk about the importance of understanding how people got their beliefs and I think when you're exposed to people. 37:25.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For him. 37:31.56 Jonathan Whistman Like Prince or that we live a very different lifestyle than maybe you've been exposed to it might even be the first time you travel travel to a foreign country and you're exposed to a different cold sugar. You start recognizing like how somebody's how much of somebody's reality is shaped by the environment they grew up in and their belief system. 37:34.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah. 37:51.51 Jonathan Whistman And I think the most powerful beliefs that people have are the ones that they don't even identify as a belief meaning they they grew up in an environment where where that was truth right? like we sort of accept that the sky is blue but the reality is how do we know the sky's blue. 37:58.31 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? It just reality. Yeah. 38:10.17 Jonathan Whistman It's only because everybody around us has always told us the sky's blue like could could be red right? Like we've just put a label on it and that's it they do a thought experiment of saying what if I grew up in a small town and everybody said the sky is red. Yeah oh it's a beautiful red sky and you know Dave you have. 38:11.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 38:22.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Are yeah. 38:27.83 Jonathan Whistman Beautiful red eyes you were just sort of like you wouldn't think of that as a belief right? You would think of it as truth and maybe you you know? eventually you grow up and you got to leave small town and you travel and you get in a cafe and the waitress comes up and says man this guy's really blue today and your eyes da are strikingly blue. You'd say well. 38:45.85 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right? ah. 38:47.50 Jonathan Whistman Waitresses lost her mind. She's the crazy one and it would probably take a lot of people banging you over the head calling the sky blue and your eyes blue for you to finally go maybe I'm the crazy 1 38:57.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 39:00.14 Jonathan Whistman And I think everyone walks through life with a set of fundamental beliefs that they don't even 0 chance they recognize it as a belief and so many automated actions happen from that core belief that are just fundamentally wrong. 39:08.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Great. 39:14.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 39:18.32 Jonathan Whistman And I think that's powerful work. We can do as leaders in organizations but also with ah people that you know in our community or in our companies that we interact with is to really authentically have the mindset of I believe you believe that and that could sound really sarcastic like. 39:34.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? yeah. 39:35.90 Jonathan Whistman Believe you believe in that but I actually mean that in a really authentic way if if I can get up next to somebody close enough where I can legitimately say ah I believe you believe that. In the sense that if I had grown up this way you had experienced what you had you know done The things you had been around the people you've been around I would have also believed exactly the same thing now I can remove any sort of judgment and when people when people feel judged. 39:58.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 40:00.47 bizzyweb Um, ah. 40:05.66 Jonathan Whistman Then they have to sort of defend their point of view. You see that on politics all the time right? like like you, you just get a label as 1 party or or the other anymore and like somebody judges the entirety of you know your moral fabric and how you see society and that's also not true. Ah. 40:07.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 40:22.11 Jonathan Whistman And so I think that's super powerful as as a leader is understanding where did people get their beliefs from ah and and then accepting that it's true. So one of the in in my book I write about 5 truths about humans and I won't bore you with all of them but 1 of them is. 40:36.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 40:40.57 Jonathan Whistman That people are giving you one ah hundred percent of what they're capable of or they have what they believe is a valid reason for not doing so it doesn't matter that it's not true. Maybe it's that they believe this right and and you can't argue with that. But you hear a lot of. 40:43.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, okay, right. 40:53.80 bizzyweb They think sure. 41:00.34 Jonathan Whistman Owners and companies somehow believing that their employees are sandbagging or don't want to work hard or they you know it's never that they just don't want to work hard for you For some reason that they believes valid. You don't care enough. You don't recognize work. You don't pay and like you. 41:11.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I. 41:16.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Third. 41:19.72 Jonathan Whistman Insert. Whatever the belief is and it could be a completely false belief but by the way as long as it's true and you resist it being true. You'll never get past that with them. 41:29.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah, that's that's that's super interesting because I think the the thing that I've always um, kind of latched onto is. 41:33.17 bizzyweb Just I am up fucking I am. 41:43.66 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, like especially if things aren't working out the way that you would plans um never attribute malice where simple incompetence is the is the actual answer. So and you know incompetence is probably too too strong of a word, but maybe that person. Isn't performing the way you wanted to because they don't just don't have the skill set. It's not that they're trying to be mean or they hate you or anything. It's just they don't know how to do it. 42:08.50 Jonathan Whistman Or or their or their definition of or their definition of what grade is is different I'll give you ah ah a real exam I'll just go back to the cleaning industry I tend to go back to that because my very first business I started was a cleaning business. 42:08.13 bizzyweb Um, isn't that the computer principle. 42:15.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So bingo. 42:24.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, we have clients and cleaning by the way this is fantastic. 42:25.32 bizzyweb Um, yeah. 42:27.29 Jonathan Whistman Couldn't be more couldn't be more separate from ah you know from from the technology I do today but imagine you grow up and you know we've we've all went in a house where it's almost a hoard hoarding situation right? It's like it's just dirty filthy what? Ah right. 42:38.11 bizzyweb Oh yeah, totally. 42:43.63 Jonathan Whistman If if you're hiring somebody that grew up in that environment and you're bringing them onto your cleaning team. They might be the cleanest person they know and the dirtiest person you know their belief structure is different. So when you're saying why can't you do quality work. They believe they are doing quality work. 42:53.99 bizzyweb Yeah, yeah. 42:58.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Off right? e. 43:02.51 Jonathan Whistman Like they're doing better quality work than anybody they've ever seen right? like their mom was a hoarder. Their dad was a hoarder. Their neighbors were hoarders I don't yeah and I'm being extreme but you sort so like take that out of the like cleaning into almost every other facet when you say here's how we treat a customer. 43:08.18 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, need of course. 43:20.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 43:21.56 Jonathan Whistman Like as an owner we have a very distinct like what is great customer service. How did they get their definition So sometimes it's not the skill or even the will. It's just their standard of great is different and I believe. 43:25.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So. 43:39.47 Jonathan Whistman That they're giving you 100% of what they're capable of or they have a valid reason for not doing so they may not be capable of doing more today because they've already viewed they already view it as top performance and when we feel like we're giving top performance. We quit paying attention. 43:41.37 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 43:57.33 Jonathan Whistman That as a deficit we move on. But I think if you examine your own life like if there was an area where you were astutely aware that you were behind your peers in a skill level or a standard you'd work on it like your subconscious would work on it. 43:57.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 44:14.34 Jonathan Whistman So I always maintain that the employee is either not aware of it just because it you know and I remember the first time I walked into a home that was greater than five Thousand Square Feet I was like people live like this can can I stay in the pantry right? and. 44:28.72 bizzyweb Um, yeah. 44:29.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yep. 44:34.48 Jonathan Whistman It's just good or bad by comparison and everybody in life's going that and but what we end up doing is we end up believing that the world sees it plus or minus ten percent of how we see it I guarantee you prince if we go back to that saw it a hundred percent different than you did. 44:44.14 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. A. 44:51.88 Jonathan Whistman Lens right? just because where it came from experiences but somehow we tend to have sort of a really narrow range of normal so we can hire somebody in a customer success role and we believe there's a 10% difference. There might be a really wide. Difference in how they see customer service and your goal in the hiring process one use data to make sure they have the fundamental you know makeup to do well in that position but then secondly where would their standard of great come from like I'll remember sitting talking to my son. 45:21.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So. 45:26.47 Jonathan Whistman Who super smart but ah wasn't a great conversationalist until you got him going and I remember having to teach him how to have a conversation I was like you know I've just thrown the ball to you Now you got to throw it back to me because I'm not going to keep throwing you balls like and you know. 45:31.16 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 45:40.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 45:40.42 bizzyweb Right. 45:43.17 Jonathan Whistman We physically would go through that and eventually became a great conversationalist and like you kind of got to think that through your employees like maybe I have to teach them how to have a great customer success call. Maybe I have to train them how to ask questions on a sales call. 45:58.57 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 46:00.63 bizzyweb I want to end because I we're coming up on a time and it has been incredibly valuable. So thank you I think one of the things that we did to sort of launch our podcast which was super fun. Is we interviewed the chat gpt robot and that was one of our first guests. 46:06.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, fascinating. Yes. 46:19.76 bizzyweb So we asked we did ask the chat gpt robot all these questions and then my cousin Matt who has this great deep baritone like Dave does performed it but what? Ah how is Ai yes, absolutely yeah, it's dial it in podcast dot com like and subscribe. 46:19.91 Jonathan Whistman Um, wow. 46:31.81 Jonathan Whistman Um, I mean you need to drop me that episode I gotta I gotta walk. 46:38.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Specific. 46:38.90 bizzyweb Ah, what? Ah how does Ai affecting ah the hiring. 46:45.29 Jonathan Whistman Ah, it's completely transforming the hiring everything from Pattern recognition on the vast amount of resumes that are coming in the front door to candidates completely writing ah their you know their resume cover letter by ah. 46:46.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Will. Split it. 46:59.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh my yeah her. 47:00.15 Jonathan Whistman By chat Gpt and submitting it without never actually even applying to the job. Um, there's automation systems out there. You could sit and you know have a beer and have have chat Gpt and plugins not Chad Gpt can't do that on its own. 47:13.35 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He. 47:16.70 Jonathan Whistman Apply to every position out there and custom write their resume truthfully even saying rewrite it with ah you know, putting forward the skills that you want for a particular job rewrite a cover letter and submit it and you don't have to do anything other than you know, take the calls to to do appointments. So. 47:19.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 47:25.95 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A a. 47:35.13 Jonathan Whistman Recruiters are operating in that environment and I think most aren't even aware of it like they're sort of aware people are doing that but it's swinging very much in that direction. So you've created this autopilot to screen candidates and candidates respond with I've created an autopilot to just keep applying. 47:42.39 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? ah. 47:50.99 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 47:54.32 Jonathan Whistman So that's a big thing right? The technology is sort of having to Unravel second to that outside of just numbers and that sort of thing the ability to to analyze vast amounts of information and come to different conclusions is. 47:57.86 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, but ask. 48:10.76 Jonathan Whistman Is super important I I think if you're the way I tend to think about Ai in this isn't unique to me. But it's ah, an idea that I've adopted is that you're not going to lose your job to an Ai you're going to lose your job to somebody using an Ai. 48:23.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 48:29.60 Jonathan Whistman And so you really have to and the pace of change is so fast I I used a product that's ah that's a calling product right? like you've you've called into a bank right? and have the robot answer yeah and. 48:29.47 bizzyweb Ah. 48:46.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, Ivr right. 48:48.82 Jonathan Whistman You know it's always wooden and doesn't get it right? I was on a call the other day I went a full 10 minutes before I realized I was talking to an Ai and it's it's getting better and better. So I started following the technology behind that. 48:55.86 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh wow. 48:56.64 bizzyweb Really. 49:07.64 Jonathan Whistman Every 30 days you think it can't get any better and it's getting better I will I would place the bet with anyone that within six months I can have somebody call you and you can hold a full 40 minute conversation with that person and you will never know it's an Ai. 49:22.81 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Well I'm I'm glad we're actually confirm confirming that we're talking to you over video as well as audio because you know I I think you're much better than an ai would have been but you know just just for everybody's benefit Jonathan is real. He's not in real. 49:25.52 Jonathan Whistman I. 49:29.55 Jonathan Whistman Yes, you you you tend you would tend to think so right? but people have remixed music and and recreated the artist's voice and created hits. 49:36.90 bizzyweb Um, he he is a real guy. 49:41.31 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 49:47.94 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A mine. Yeah. 49:49.55 Jonathan Whistman Released in that artist's voice and arguably like there's 2 sides that like ah you know how can you rip off this artist's work but the other side of that is if you really enjoyed the music and you had a good time and it had the emotional lift you wanted to and you know you got you like do you really care that it was created through an ai I mean like I think us you know. 49:54.33 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A of. 50:04.68 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 50:08.72 Jonathan Whistman Will sort of snobbishly be? Oh yes, it's not real art but in so many aspects of the economy people won't care like that 10 minute conversation I had with a customer success agent when I finally realized I like I was like how dare they try to trick me. 50:15.96 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 50:27.70 Jonathan Whistman Then I thought actually I had much better service than I've ever gotten from a customer success agent I would rather have that experience every single time. So I I think we look out in the future. You're going to have like and when I say future I'm eighteen months like it's not. 50:31.21 bizzyweb I. 50:34.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, that's awesome and. 50:36.39 bizzyweb While. 50:44.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? It's coming fast. 50:47.20 Jonathan Whistman s not way out there I think you're going to have you like we're going to start developing where it's going to be kind of cute to have you know bespoke human crafted things like maybe you'll be reading a book that was actually written by a human. It'll be kind of cute. It's sort of like. You know people do vintage glasses and you know they know it's not the best but you know it was handcrafted I think that almost every area of system like why would I hire an attorney when. 51:06.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah. 51:11.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In print. 51:21.84 Jonathan Whistman I can sit down and have a very human-like conversation with with an ai that sounds human has a sense of humor asks me great questions and then 30 seconds later gives me the advice and all the contracts I need to do that and it's probably better than. 51:29.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He so. 51:38.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah. 51:41.10 Jonathan Whistman I just think we'll go there like you think to be about doctors. Do you want somebody operating you know, planning your cancer treatment that went to medical school a decade ago and attends 1 conference a year and maybe reads 3 papers because they're busy. 51:46.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 51:53.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Immediate right. 51:58.73 Jonathan Whistman Or would you rather have that diagnosis done by so by an Ai that has looked at every single instance of cancer on the planet and can remember every single diagnosis in the outcome I'd rather have the ai go. You know what? Jonathan I think you got the. 52:06.45 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? I. 52:15.80 Jonathan Whistman You're only the third case of it. But that's what you got. 52:15.83 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? right? and that would be a doctor that's using Ai so the person using Ai to help weed out all the possibilities. 52:16.85 bizzyweb Yes, and. 52:21.12 Jonathan Whistman Um, yeah, yeah, so is it malpractice then at some point for a doctor not to use it because he's withheld the best quality medicine you can get I think it's he's going to change education. 52:31.13 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb M. 52:39.41 Jonathan Whistman And I do think as a society. We're not ready for it and there's a lot of nefarious things that will also happen. Um, you ah but but you you won't You won't stop that progress and I think we have to have a reimagining of what you. 52:56.33 Jonathan Whistman UnkS ah so especially as a guy and and I probably same to women but especially as as you know we get more equality in the workplace. But I don't think you could grow up as a male in our society and with not within the first ten minutes of every conversation you've had with a new person had them ask you? What do you do for a living. 52:56.72 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So it. 53:02.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Move 6 53:13.26 bizzyweb Sure yeah. 53:14.72 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, true. Ah. 53:15.74 Jonathan Whistman Like our identity is what do you do for a living or how do you earn a living and I think that's it's sort of grotesque like let's change the conversation because why do I have to earn a living like I have a right to be alive just I'm alive but but our society has by. 53:29.29 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For roof. 53:34.50 Jonathan Whistman Nature created this this this identity around What what do we do to exchange for cash right? and I do believe in in in capitalism. But I think we have to rethink capitalism to be a humane capitalism. 53:42.84 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah. 53:52.29 Jonathan Whistman For this 1 reason if nothing else there will not be enough jobs for people to work forty sixty hours a week every week and neither should they like. 53:59.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? right. 54:04.32 Jonathan Whistman Why is that a good thing I don't see anybody going man I loved working 60 hours a week now. Maybe if you're passionate about something you're going to do like I stayed up late last night because I was on this idea that I'm working on in tech and I could have you know when I went to bed I was like man I wish I had another 15 hours 54:07.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In me. 54:18.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 54:20.65 Jonathan Whistman That's totally different than somebody slaving away in a call center. You know dialing for dollars because they got to put food on the table to you know to send more money up the chain to a big corporation and I'm not anti-corporation either. 54:25.53 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? are right. 54:38.73 Jonathan Whistman And it can sound that way I Just think we we have to be able to have really open conversations without fear and people get in sort of fear-based thinking of be like have you ever went in and like tried to install Hubspot as an example and you have the somebody in that company. 54:49.10 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, this. 54:53.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yep. 54:57.93 Jonathan Whistman Who is the I don't know choose some other software Salesforce expert. That's their identity. They don't really care that Hubspot's going to be better or that like at some point they're like well if we move to Hubspot I'm not the expert anymore. 55:02.38 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? ah. 55:05.16 bizzyweb Yep. 55:07.75 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 55:10.77 bizzyweb Um, yeah, it's a takeaway from them. 55:12.34 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Home. Yeah, who see. 55:15.79 Jonathan Whistman Yeah I'm taken away from that person and and so you get the same thing when you tell people you know out in California. Well it's stupid to be farming in California because you're drilling down and sucking all the water up and you know you can't do that anymore. True from the sideline that's easy to say and the data would probably support that. 55:26.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb For. 55:33.87 Jonathan Whistman But if you're a family that has done that for decades and you have everything invested in that it is completely unreasonable to think that person is just going to voluntarily go Yep you know what done it for generations. Let me turn the tap off. It's just not. 55:34.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? he. 55:47.73 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, right right? who. 55:52.84 Jonathan Whistman And and so that's a very long-winded way to say how do I think Ai is going to change hiring. Yeah I think ai is going to change everything and that is given I don't care what you think about? Ai it is here and it's it's actually always been here. 55:55.82 bizzyweb Um, well oh it's great. Yeah. 55:57.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah I love that? Yeah yes. 56:07.11 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yep, algorithms. 56:10.98 Jonathan Whistman Ai is really just advanced mathematics. We we have problems here. Yeah I had as a consulting company and was helping bring to market market a quantum computer if you if you're not familiar with quantum computing super cutting edge things. It will completely transform. 56:24.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay. 56:30.66 Jonathan Whistman Ah, the the way we are able to solve math problems or other problems but think about like ah a caffeine molecule We drink coffee every day There's no computer on the planet right now that can model a caffeine molecule. We know. 56:38.58 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb E. 56:46.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A a. 56:46.88 bizzyweb Really. 56:50.40 Jonathan Whistman We know how to do it. We just don't have enough compute power to do it so Google so ah Google has their quantum computer Ibm' ' is also doing quantum computer and about a year ago. Ah they solved a computer ah an equation in 3 minutes 56:58.75 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And then. 57:09.60 Jonathan Whistman Would have taken the world's largest supercomputer one ah hundred and fifty years of compute time now. The problem they were solving wasn't meaningful in any way. It's designed to be a math problem to challenge computers. But the fact that it was able to solve something that's previously been unsolvable. 57:15.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Ah, yeah. 57:21.19 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 57:29.44 Jonathan Whistman Like why is that important and and this is I don't think people are like they're just whistling away at whatever they're doing in their day job. Ah when you can ah when when we make medicine today right? they go in they study the genome they study Dna right. 57:33.87 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Okay. 57:49.18 Jonathan Whistman And they say we think the problems here here here and so they cut that they literally go into a wet lab and they have to make a culture and they have to do all that and then they test it and then it didn't work So now let's narrow it down right? and you're just sort of narrowing down to get to a problem when you can. 57:55.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 4 58:09.40 Jonathan Whistman Model in a computer environment every possible outcome. You don't have to use a wet lab. You can instantly try every possible combination to solve Alzheimer's cancer. It's a computing problem. It's not a knowledge problem that that we're that we're constrained by. 58:26.75 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You. 58:28.84 Jonathan Whistman And and you can think about this in sort of an archaic industry you would have when you're making an airplane today. There is no airplane manufacturer that builds the whole airplane and then just goes out and puts it in a wind tunnel and blows wind at it to see if the the wings will come off. 58:41.62 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So right. 58:47.38 Jonathan Whistman They do it in a computer simulation. So they they can test all the wind forces and they they can build a close to perfect aircraft first time in the manufacturing plant that same sort of computer. That's just an evolution in computing power and we take it for granted now like. That same thing's happening in medicine we we just we you know the human genomes just been completely mapped and already if you like Google genomic based medicine. The things that are coming in the pipeline. There's already been 3 or four drugs approved for it. 59:05.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And it will be in sales. 59:15.32 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, a. 59:24.92 Jonathan Whistman They're like revolutionary. It's not like I made you you're blind and I made you see better. You're you're blind and now you have twenty twenty vision like completely and ah undid that health problem and yes, it's a very ah subset of macular degeneration. But. 59:28.55 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb O. Right. 59:41.47 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 59:44.54 Jonathan Whistman We're going to get when we get enough compute power and we get Ai running in the background to recognize those patterns. We're going to be fixing things like that. So then the question just becomes what do we do as a as a human race with all this time we have like we used to have to go down to the river and crush our clothes on rocks to get them clean and then. 59:49.79 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. Right? right? right. Are right. 01:00:01.77 Jonathan Whistman You know now we have water piped into our houses so we sit and watch Tv and and we put them in the washing machine and you know that was too hard for some of us so we hired a maid to put it in the washing machine or we send. Ah so I just think it's fun like let's imagine life where when you meet somebody the phrase. 01:00:10.52 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 01:00:18.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 01:00:21.67 Jonathan Whistman What do you do to earn a living is meaningless like they look at you like you are speaking a foreign language and the question is what do you do to live That's the future I'm looking for it to. 01:00:23.26 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right? Yeah, and oh I love that and that's that's actually a perfect place to tap into or or go to part two next time because I think we could have. 01:00:32.87 bizzyweb As it point also and 1 01:00:40.81 bizzyweb I love you know? no you, you're fantastic Jonathan where where can people find you the book. The sales boss is available on Amazon. 01:00:41.77 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And other hours long conversation about Ai this is wonderful. Yeah. 01:00:42.16 Jonathan Whistman Um, you So I'm rambling on. 01:00:50.91 Jonathan Whistman Yeah, the ah the sales boss. You can also email me John Jao in just don't put an h in it at the sales boss or john@whohire.com I would give you perception predict but everybody spells that wrong. So who hires really easy. The sales boss is easy or you know. 01:01:06.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, love it.