00:01.73 bizzyweb So normally Dave and I do these podcasts and we're really excited about it and we're happy to to be here. But um, not today right? Dave well I'm a I'm a little excited to but something happened at Disney Web this week that um. 00:08.52 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh oh I'm a little excited. 00:19.43 bizzyweb Yeah, so we ah Dave and I were in a meeting together and ah somebody said to us how ah to to us that we we don't deal well with change and and Dave and I looked at each other and said well sure we do. And then we kind of got laughed out of the room right. 00:41.12 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah I was exactly but you know we have We have ah thick skins and when we decided to regroup and bring on an expert to prove that we know what we're doing when it comes to change. 00:45.47 bizzyweb Right. Right? And as as to middle aged men. We love nothing more than than than change right? It's we don't fear it at all. It's not like snakes or clowns or clown snakes or anything. Do you fear Clown snakes. 00:58.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure. 01:06.26 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, no, it's mostly falling from from high high heights and it's that's only the abrupt stop at the bottom. 01:13.37 bizzyweb You know it's funny. You say that because I when I go see ah my my therapist. He's on. Ah, he's on the fourth floor of his building and it's a glass elevator and I'm terrified to get the elevator because I feel like I'm falling. Yeah yeah, so. 01:21.78 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh see I Love that stuff? Yeah, yeah. 01:27.73 bizzyweb So today we're going to talk about change. We're going to talk about change in business and change in ah what you do and how you do it and we do have a a longtime friend of the show who's here and so we are delighted to have sayer darling change management expert hello darling. 01:41.50 Sayre darling Hello Sweetie How are you. 01:45.31 bizzyweb I Well I'm here under protest but I will I will work it out so you are a change management expert your ah entire consultancy is basing on how to help organizations change for the better. 01:48.24 Sayre darling Um, of. 02:00.60 Sayre darling That is correct. Um today we're going to talk about what's new about change. Especially what's new in 2023 02:06.42 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, girl two fun look at you. 02:10.90 bizzyweb Ah, that's fantastic because we're as we're recording this. We're kind of looking at 2023 right down the right down the barrel of 2023 so let's rewind a couple of years how did ah organizationally speaking how did covid ah change the landscape. 02:26.16 Sayre darling Are. 02:28.50 bizzyweb See I use change. We should make a drinking game out of this. We do should not everybody drink drink when we say change What what happened to organizations when when everything had to to go sideways. 02:40.93 Sayre darling Ah, covid was really an accelerant of change in the world and while the speed of life. Ah, certainly increased during the past three years change changed as well and so now when we look at change from the past. Ah, we looked at change as an episode I'm going to implement this particular technology I'm going to change this particular part of the business process and now there isn't enough time to solve all of our problems one after another. And frankly, it doesn't work because we are so much more interconnected these days and things are moving so much faster and they're so much more complex so instead of change being episodic being I'm solving this one problem the rest of my life is working just fine. 03:19.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Both. 03:35.27 Sayre darling I'm just going to change this one thing or change this one process in my business. It is much better to look at change as the like the the force that drives your business change is how business improves. It is not an episode. It is not looked at as a foreign object landing on your plate. It is how you cultivate new practices procedures and and reinvent yourselves and your business so change is systemic. And ah change is um, pause. Um change is systemic and needs to be pause change is systemic and we need to change the way we change. And change the way we lead it. 04:28.86 bizzyweb Okay, so first of all, we're gonna completely abandon the idea of the drinking game because I think we're gonna kill somebody if we do if we keep it up just after the first answer. So second question is um, why is it so hard. 04:35.64 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um. 04:38.93 Sayre darling Um, well humans are wired for certainty. Um, you know we feel more in Control. We We have more certainty that things will work out the way we want them. And so that's why we're willing to pay a very high price for doing everything the same way. Even if it means going out of our way and not being as efficient as a possible or falling short of our goals. It's the yes, this might not be perfect. But I know how to make it work and. I Just can't take the risk kind of thinking so certainty Um, certainly equals safety which makes us feel good. Life is not certain and life is a process of continual change. 05:28.10 bizzyweb Is the difference between risk management and change management just two sides of the same coin. 05:36.31 Sayre darling Um I don't think so ah risk management um is a part of how you manage change and how you need to approach the change that you are wanting to make. In the past we have looked at change as oh it's Complicated. It's going to be hard. It's going to mess with my life and so that's the mindset we bring into the change process. However, if you lead change rather than manage it. You can look at all of the advantages of making the change involve people in a way that helps them understand what the opportunities are that everyone is trying to create rather than to. Created a ah period of misery during the transition and getting accustomed to the change. 06:30.56 bizzyweb So a lot of if I understand you correctly people fear change because they know they have a problem but it's the devil they know. 06:42.20 Sayre darling Yes, it is the devil they know and they don't want to go through all of the angst all of the new thinking that is involved in going to a large scale change. 06:57.90 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And that's one of the things that we really battle though in marketing for a busy web. For example where we're dealing with folks that are afraid of change and they say well we've been doing this stuff for this long and our business is running and so why can't We just keep doing that. And there's a fallacy involved in not changing I mean there's there's simply no way to maintain status quo without doing something right. 07:29.22 Sayre darling Absolutely and we're not talking about maintaining status quo anymore in 2023 ah change has accelerated so much over the past three years moving into the fourth industrial revolution. 07:33.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 07:45.87 Sayre darling If you don't change. You will be out of business. You will be left behind and it isn't just the change you are making to a particular marketing practice in the way you work with people. It's how you look at your business in the new landscape. 08:01.27 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 08:03.76 Sayre darling We have been getting ready to get ready for 2023 for several years at first we thought it was going to come in 2021? Oh ah, covid is over with and here we are in 2023 are getting ready and we are now faced with. Okay, people are back to work. We've got to work through a recession. We've got to rebuild we want to come out of this recession doing what if you're not doing something new. You don't have people's attentions. The risk. For not doing change in 2023 is exponentially greater than what it has been in the past. 08:45.53 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb So you you need to be proactive in embracing change in order to even stand out or get noticed. 08:55.56 Sayre darling Yes, and ah, the great word. You use there Dave was being proactive. You can do change. This seems like a very subtle point but doing change is doing what everyone else is doing and doing it the way they're doing it. 09:01.98 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, one of them are. 09:11.86 Sayre darling Not even thinking about it and being proactive about change means being strategic and being decisive. We are going to make a particular change because it makes sense for our new strategic plan. It helps us to increase our business find different customers. 09:12.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Evil. 09:31.76 Sayre darling Do a completely different type of business and only when you are proactive can you own the change meaning know what you're doing and why you're doing it and what kind of mindset it takes to be successful at it. When you're just going through the motions and following the owner's manual of saying. Okay this is the next step we have to do a lot of those advantages are never realized. 09:58.88 bizzyweb When you come into a company say because people bring you to help facilitate change right? What are some of the things that if if if a Ceo brings you in he says I want to make this change when I know it's hard and I don't know what to do? where do you take it from there. 10:04.25 Sayre darling Um, yes. 10:18.69 bizzyweb As as an outside concept consultant. 10:18.91 Sayre darling Well I have an approach that I call change leadership and as I've said you do not manage change. You get out you lead it or get pause as I have shared. You do not manage change you lead it or you get out of the way. And what is missing in change management. There's nothing wrong with it. First of all, but it is just a process for the work project. It does not include a leader finding their reason for why we are going to change beyond. We need to keep keep up with the industry we need to have this technology et cetera. They can't often give a reason other than we're doing the change because so change leadership is about. Understanding the granularity of the change understanding what the opportunities are for using this change to address other issues. So let me give you an example if you are using a new marketing process as you are pitching for your clients. Um. How can that new marketing process engage your clients employees a bit more tap into their creativity. Give them a leadership development opportunity. Show them a little bit of love and recognition. How can you use the change. 11:49.16 Sayre darling As a way to create a systemic solution for the organization that gives everyone a little bit more of what they really want because of how you approach the change. 12:03.27 bizzyweb What are some of the things that organizations are struggling with in 2023 in terms of the status quo versus ah evolving into something new. 12:13.50 Sayre darling Because everything is changing so fast. They don't know where to start? What's the trigger. What where do I want to go What else is changing. How do I connect with those things. What has really changed in 2023 is there is no. Ah, familiarity and you cannot base next year's plans on best practices because we don't do that Anymore. You need New Best practices. 12:43.83 bizzyweb Well that all sounds terrifying. So if I can't if I can't rest my laurels on my existing best practices because I know they're gonna have to change what do I How do I do that. 12:46.30 Sayre darling Pretty much. 12:59.75 Sayre darling It requires a new way of thinking and a new conversation inside of organizations. So when you and implement change right now you assign a project manager who may or may know so Pause. You assign a change manager who may or may not know anything about your business or that particular technology. They just know how to manage change and then you may hire someone like myself to come in and help with the ah people side of change the change management. 13:30.49 bizzyweb Um. 13:34.22 Sayre darling And I don't know anything about the politics of the organization who the influential leaders are the executive Leadership team isn't really leading the change. They're just there for window dressing and to make the opening announcement and so the change itself is already disconnected from the organization. Okay. So in the new world. You need to get past thinking that you can lead change according to the organizational structure change created at the Executive leadership team level sounds like it was created at the Executive Leadership team level. 14:03.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Both. 14:13.24 Sayre darling And when you roll that change down into the organization in each level you have to change the language and help them understand the motivations for the change according to the motivations of how. Pause. Today when you make the change you need to find a way to get the change explained and aligned with the metrics and the motivations of each level of your organization. So when you start at the top of the organization with the executive leadership team. Let's say you're rolling out some new technology that collects a lot more data from your customers. Well frontline employees in a service industry who are wanting. To hang on to their ability to have individual conversations with individuals they are making deliveries to or interacting with they're not exactly going to be motivated for all the reasons you give for this data will help our company to do Xy and Z. 15:24.64 Sayre darling They want to hold on to that personal contact and connection. They want to be valued in your organization for the knowledge they have about the customers and that and keeping their role in doing that. So when you decide you want to make a change. It needs to involve people across the organization at every level of the organization and decide. So what kind of company. Do we want to be how do we want to serve our customers differently. How do we think the landscape of business has changed over the last three years where does that work in our favor and where are we obsolete. 16:04.74 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Is that partly because people expect to be able to have conversations with people now in in the age of social Media. You can pretty much talk to anyone right? So is is that more the expectation of people that are. In your front lines that they feel like they should have a voice. 16:27.46 Sayre darling Having a voice and effectively talking about change are 2 different things. Yes, it's important for everyone to have a voice and you need to understand how to have a conversation so that you. 16:32.72 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb A. 16:45.15 Sayre darling Are hearing people at every level. Um, you might be hearing the words but you're not really hearing the meaning really digging into what is important. It's really more of a facilitated conversation dave than it. You know than it is about listening to everybody. 16:46.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Over. 16:56.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, sure. Yeah. 17:03.17 Sayre darling We listen to a lot of stuff but the language I use in coaching isn't the language I need to be slipping into in this conversation here about change because although you would understand the words I'm using. 17:08.12 bizzyweb Um. 17:19.17 Sayre darling The nuances I'm trying to express are not going to be understood because I just switched conversation I just switched languages for you. 17:27.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Got it. 17:27.86 bizzyweb I Yeah you said something really fascinating. They're say that I I want to explore a little more and I immediately sort of graded on what you just said when you said everybody needs to have a voice in Change. And I'm higher up the company that I work for but I'm not the the head of it and I know that a lot of the heads of companies that I work for would grade on that too because sometimes as the head you note this is the way it is this is this is what we're going to do so. I Know that there's a tremendous importance in making sure that downstream employees have have have valued but you talk a little bit more about what the reasoning behind that is when and how. A yeah there. Let's start with that. How the reasoning behind making sure everyone's heard because it's not just doing the change right? The next step is the adoption which is what you need people for yeah. 18:28.66 Sayre darling Yes, first you have to understand how we're going to make the change and then you can have the adoption. So the way it has worked in the past is that executives will announce. We're going to have a change There is no conversation about who's going to be involved where they got the information to decide how they made the change no input on how they're going to make the change and the project manager rolls out the schedule for. Here are the implementation steps here's where in the project meetings are here's when the transition period is and we go. We go live on this particular date that is all communicated before people understand how we're going to make the change. So if the executive changes their approach to the announcement by saying we need to make some changes with this particular goal in mind we need increased revenues different customers. Whatever it is and. We're going to hold listening sessions about what do you see as the issues and the opportunities in making a change at this time, get some alignment around a direction and then move along with what the choices are. 19:55.74 Sayre darling Come back and talk about here's what we looked at here's what we learned from inside the organization about what's important and how we make that change what the advantages are of making that change Now. We're going to get to work on what the change plan is. 20:18.92 bizzyweb Again, that just all seems terrifying but ah when you come in and help an organization. How do you help ceos get over their ego that I have to be the. This is my way and this is I We're gonna do it for because this is what I want to do. 20:37.42 Sayre darling Yes, they can go ahead and move toward what they want to do and what price are you willing to pay to get that done. Are you going to be able to hang on to your key talent. What is it that you need to? um. Quit doing so that you can make time for what needs to be done to make the change happen making change takes additional time and effort yet. Nothing ever comes off, People's priority lists when they're asked to be involved in making a change. 21:09.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb First. 21:12.24 Sayre darling It's like everything is just as important as everything else. Well if I don't like doing something I don't understand how to do it then why do you think I'm going to show up and give you my best effort which explains why 70% of all change does not work. So. I do not deny the Ceo what they want to accomplish but I ask questions about at what cost. Um, what are the advantages that we can achieve with this change that you haven't even thought about before so that it's more systemic. And how much time and effort are you going to commit to institutionalizing this change meaning integrated into the fabric of your organization. How does it change your customer experience. What are the success stories. You can capture. How can you take those success stories and bring the value back to your brand. How does it improve the customer working experience. You know there are a lot of employees. Um, who are doing a lot of work not aligned with anything. It's either work. They want to do or they were hired on some cut and paste job description. That's totally irrelevant how many of those individuals. Do you have whose jobs are going to change significantly or they want their jobs to change significantly. 22:39.58 Sayre darling Because they want to be able to contribute and be part of this change does that make sense. 22:43.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Absolutely I think for for us then Sarah as we're looking at it is our our audience here is probably revenue managers folks that are are trying to drive probably some pretty significant change into 2023. Where would you recommend that these folks these change managers start in identifying a change so they they know they need to make some change. They know what the change sort of is. Where do where do you start after you've identified the need and the direction for change. Um. 23:23.31 Sayre darling I don't really have a formula for that Dave but I do a probing conversation about why? Do you think that's true. Um, what are some of the advantages. No one thinks about what the advantages are to making a change. So what are the advantages of making that change what you need to stop doing once you've made that change. What is this um, something new and different I was trying to get away from using the change word again. Um what? What is this new and different thing going to replace. 23:52.44 bizzyweb The breath. 23:53.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And. 24:00.19 Sayre darling Um, how do you need to ease it in by getting people's input upfront socializing it if you will um and taking input before you decide. You're actually going to move somebody's cheese. You know it's nice to know where the cheese is moving and why. 24:17.51 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Absolutely. 24:19.42 bizzyweb Is that is that ah is that a reference to the the old book that who move my cheese. Yeah I think so I let's let's maybe run out a practical exercise here because one of the things that we see it busy up because we were. 24:19.98 Sayre darling Um, yes, yes, exactly. 24:33.96 bizzyweb I work with a company called hubspot that starts with crms and ah so when we we hit people on their growth spurt really as they've grown to their first level and then now it's like they have to get better. 1 of the things we see is you have to get a better control of your data and so you should institute a crn. And then ah within about 10 minutes after suggesting that and the Ceo saying that's a really good idea. Let's definitely talk about that. Um, the the sales team is in revolt because they don't want to do it. 24:56.72 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Think seeing you're not saying That's a really good idea. 25:06.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Too much change. Yeah. 25:08.82 Sayre darling And what did the salespeople fear the most that their sales conversation which they do not only to be successful, but it really makes them feel good. It gets their adrenaline going. It is their hammer and when you have a hammer. Everything is a nail and all of a sudden a crm requires they have to have a screwdriver or a saw or something else and that slows them down and for salespeople they also have to pay attention to how fast can I get this done. 25:29.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb 5 25:44.73 Sayre darling And still hold on to this relationship. So Let's say you want to install a crm um, involve the salespeople in terms of what type of information is important for you to have captured in a ah crm. Um, that helps you and not just the company gather data about. How much is purchased and when. 26:08.65 bizzyweb That's a great point. So if and I know I think I've experienced this couple times this past in 2022 is sometimes people just shrug and say well they won't do it. So if you have a if they if you have so as a follow up to the same scenario. If you want to do it but you have employee you revolt over it. Do what do you do? then? do you just force it through or do you do it gradually or or do you um wish people best of luck in their future endeavors. 26:41.33 Sayre darling Well change needs to be built into the culture of the organization now more than ever what is the role of change in your organization. How do you regard it if you are a well-established company. Who has all the assets in the world and in the past you really didn't have to pay much attention to what everybody else was changing because you had such significant assets that you were well protected your sales. Um. And Marketing. We're working as a fine-tuned machine that is not going to get you the certainty that you want in 2023 So how are you going to integrate change in the culture of your organization. And help people understand that it's happening to everyone. We are not exempt and we need to norm it out a bit and have greater tolerance for it and that is about learning and development opportunities and socializing conversations. In a luncheon learn or in employee communications in in terms of asking employees to think about a coaching question or ask department heads to pose a question and a staff meeting to say so how would you react to change in your particular job or what if we changed. 28:13.44 Sayre darling You know a sacred something in the organization. How would that change your life and just get people more comfortable norm out change. 28:14.76 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Will be. 28:25.64 bizzyweb I Think ah you know in in in the this sales revolt that we're talking about I think some of that is generational to do as you get older. Is it harder to change. 28:39.10 Sayre darling It depends on the type of change. Honestly, Um, yes, people who are older have different things to think about than people who are younger, but both groups ah need to understand. What the strengths weaknesses opportunity and threats are of not changing. 29:00.38 bizzyweb What are some of the costs associated with making a change I know and ah the evaluative process I know you know Dave and I work in sales. It's it's a money. It's ah it's a benefit. 29:10.30 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb We do. 29:15.58 bizzyweb But there's other other things that go into it So what is what are some of the other things when you're talking about making a big institutional change. What are some other considerations. 29:21.12 Sayre darling Yeah, because people would rather die than change at times that they are going to hold onto their job and doing it the same way. They've always done it so they're going to leave and find a place where they can do it the way they've always done it. Um, the business question about change is always driven by money money hits fear. So if I don't change I have the fear of losing my money so change in business is driven by usually what's the ah roi. Um. What they're not thinking about is what's the time and training involved in the transition. What's the alternative. What's the cost of not changing and what's the opportunity cost. So the cost of change is both objective and measurable as well as subjective and very difficult to measure. So are you making a change as an early adopter then you're thinking about um, what is the advantage and how long will I have the advantage of being an early adopter. Um, and do I have the key talent to implement that now or do I have to attract it. And um, what are the unknown costs of being an early adopter I ah was one of the um first on implementing electronic health records in the twin cities and did the first communications plan. 30:48.65 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Who. 30:54.25 Sayre darling For the implementation of an epic ehr system and because the client was an early adopter. They did not know what information was not included by the manufacturer. 31:10.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Hold hold. 31:11.77 Sayre darling In how you implement the change and how you customize the electronic health records for every single clinic. So many clinics who did not have it talent or people who naturally have those gifts um to help them figure it Out. It was a long and painful process. And we had to step in from a company perspective and do additional change management change transition facilitate conversations between the manufacturer and the client to get that done. So It's a different conversation for early adopters. Then if you're in the middle of the pack. Um, there are some similar questions but different considerations would be Fomo fear of losing out. You know the industry is moving in this direction. What's the overall value and benefit of the change and um. Um, if you're in the laggard. Um, the cost of change is the fear of what we know we are losing out on because we aren't keeping up with the competition. Um, and you're losing customers and you can't attract the best talent So that. Decision is made from a deficit position rather than the early adopters and the middle of the road. 32:34.60 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And I think for us, it's probably when we're having conversations with manufacturers say about Crm um, they're probably sort of in the in the big in the middle of the bell curve toward the end of the bell curve where they're sort of lagging so the the. Necessity for change is written on the wall. They see it. They know that their competitors are probably using a business system to keep track of everything and they see their sales teams with post-it notes or running off of a word doc or a Google doc and. They get that the need for change. But at the same time they now have a sense of pride in the fact that they haven't been changing this long and everything's working. So how do you kind of unhook ego from the status quo. And get people to change. 33:29.31 Sayre darling Well I want to pick up on ah on a comment you made Dave I wonder what the sales of post-it notes have done since we've begun all of this change. They must have momentated. But um, once again, it is about. 33:36.15 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah. 33:39.36 bizzyweb Um, ah. 33:46.89 Sayre darling Normalizing change inside the culture of the organization acknowledging the pride of based on the success of doing things the way they have always been doing them and helping them create a story. 33:58.21 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In jail. 34:03.57 Sayre darling That works for their employees and their customers of why we're making a change at this time and one thought I would provide your customers that are in the middle of the road and considering change. The worst thing you can do is say well. All of our competitors are doing this So I guess we have to do it. The reason why is because you end up doing what everybody else is doing therefore you are totally unable to make it your own to customize it and to find different Ways. You can take advantage of that change. 34:22.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 34:40.70 Sayre darling To generate energy and release the um release the pent up um creativity inside of your organization and then taking advantage of it in ways that just doing change doesn't allow you. 34:58.55 bizzyweb What are some examples or a real world example that you can give us of somebody who didn't make make the change and how did that hurt them. 35:10.10 Sayre darling Um, that didn't make a change um not coming up with anything off the top of my side. Yeah. 35:18.95 bizzyweb Well, we can. We can. We can come back to that I think um, one one of the things that I ask ceos in that scenario when they're talking about change the whether or not they make a change or not is there. There's There's often ah a considerable difference between being right. And being successful and as I get older I find that I'm right more often than I'm not and it couldn't matter less unless I'm unless I'm collaborating with other people. 35:49.10 Sayre darling With with age comes wisdom and there is no right? as as we know, um, the question I would ask any executive who decides not to change is what are the consequences of not making that change. And even though things are running ah quite smoothly. Um, everything is all systems are go everything is working when you decide not to make a change There's a lot of energy that your organization Loses. You cannot sustain. A winning track record for so long on the same playbook to mix all my metaphors. Um, you have to be able to create some new plans some new strategies some new ways of doing everything even if it's just to keep your employees fresh and engaged. 36:32.20 bizzyweb My elder. 36:40.77 Sayre darling And bringing all of their effort and imagination and creativity into the job. 36:46.10 bizzyweb So back to that example of the sales peopleople in the and the Crm I would think a consequences of change in that scenario if you don't get the sales peopleople to do what you want then there the question then becomes who's really in charge. And if they don't like something else, you've now created a precedent that they don't have to do it if they don't want to. 37:09.19 Sayre darling And that's because what is missing from that conversation is to talk to salespeople about what is the nature of your conversation now because you have this tool. How can you change your conversation. 37:18.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb If. 37:26.91 Sayre darling That does not mean losing everything you have always done. How can you change the direction of that conversation. What new information can you gather everyone can make a change but they don't know how to talk about it. Well I'm sorry I now I have to ask you all these questions because we have the crm and. And I know it' it's it's an inconvenience I hate doing it. But you know we have to do it now. You know that has about as much appeal as is Rotten Fish so how do you shift that conversation. What are the questions. What are the tools for saying. 37:49.70 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, right. 38:05.83 Sayre darling That's wonderful to know now I'm just curious how about this. What about that? How do you help salespeople shift that conversation like everything else we get wired to only have a 1 type of conversation. That helps us reach our goals as fast as possible with the least amount of pain as possible possible and 1 thing we don't ever think about is how do I keep in conversation with people and ask different questions and still keep or improve the relationship. That I have with them. 38:41.67 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb It it occurs to me that perhaps one of the things that we've struggled with with our clients and I'm I'm thinking specifically back on a couple of clients that we've implemented crms. But then they ultimately failed. Um, I'm thinking about where where things might have gone wrong, right? So part of I guess where leadership didn't carry the ball forward is that they didn't tell the story of why and. They they approached the project with apathy where they were like okay, we're making this change and they were bought in on it but they werere like okay well I'll just let my team figure it out from there and they never really told the story on what the wins were of having for example, a Crm um, and they didn't take into account. Or or they didn't answer the objections of the people that they were relying on to make the change like yeah in in 1 specific example we had a client who was excited about it internally like with with us and them. But then they're just like okay well the sales team will take care of it. And then the sales team never did anything with it because they said well we can't do this one report and so they never handled the objection around that report. They let the team set up the wall that turned out to be. 39:59.00 Sayre darling You. 40:11.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Impregnable because nobody helped them get over it or through value. Yeah. 40:13.47 Sayre darling That was that was a fantastic example of and and the tone you used in sharing. It is so accurate of how executives launch a change. Well here's what we're going to be doing. 40:24.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah. 40:29.30 Sayre darling And so employees are reacting to the energy in their voice and what wasn't said that was forceful. We're going to be doing it no matter what and so employees quit thinking about how do I make this work. What will this take? what? um. 40:37.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Growth. 40:48.84 Sayre darling Leniency Do I have in this in terms of pause Wrong wrong word. Um, what decisions do I have in making this work. What contributions do you need from me in figuring out how to make it work the way that change. Was announced was so Forceful. It's like damn the torpedoes full steam ahead without thinking about the consequences and not including a recognition of the change This will mean for salespeople. 41:09.61 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, would it. 41:25.46 Sayre darling Implement in deciding how to communicate it differently changing their role with the customer changing their relationships and oftentimes salespeople don't have the knowledge of how do you change your conversation to get different information. To move the relationship deeper and so when busy web is selling to these types of customers explaining to them the opportunities of when you have a crm like this to customize the data collections so that you build a deeper relationship. Do some learning and development along with the installation to say here's how we need to change our conversation because in today's world that is moving so fast. You need a lot of time and headspace to be able to think about. Okay, so what does this mean? How do i. 42:09.17 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 42:22.57 Sayre darling Need to do it. How can I do it rather than just react to it. 42:25.28 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure So So it's important to key into the story of the net benefit that comes from the change and to identify or maybe even clearly spell out a mechanism wherein. People can register objections and have conversation around them work forward. 42:46.40 Sayre darling Yes. 42:48.78 bizzyweb It's sort of like it's sort of like the old. Ah, the old Improv trick where you need to say yes and so we are instituting this change and here is why and. 42:52.82 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Sure yeah. 43:02.66 bizzyweb We're doing this because we think your life is going to get better in these ways will will you come Will you come along with us. 43:05.51 Sayre darling And yes and how will our customers benefit and how will the employee experience improve and what's the value. We want to bring to our brand and. 43:08.31 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb He was. 43:23.37 Sayre darling How it differentiates us. 43:25.40 bizzyweb Is it really that much of a people problem that when you're trying to institute change to to have make sure that you have that much. 43:38.60 bizzyweb Institutional buy in from the the the farther down leaders because I think the I think I know what the answer is but I want to hear you as the experts say it. 43:43.73 Sayre darling Yes, it is that much of a people problem and I'll give you a little suggestion for why in business we are trained to be communicators rather than having a conversation in business. I ask you a question you answered the question I asked you a question you answered the question and because you answered my questions and I felt so good about the way you answered it I just assume a whole bunch of stuff around that you love it. You accept it. You know what? I'm talking about. Um. Everything's going to work out hunky Dory what you don't understand is how much you don't know how much your client doesn't know how much your client doesn't know they don't know and the way you find that out is to have a conversation a conversation. Is a lot of give and take much like what we're doing here. We're kind of interrupting each other. We're kind of joking around a bit. We're talking all around the issues. It's not um. 44:54.83 bizzyweb I'm not joking I genuinely hate change I fear change I don't like it I want all of you off my lawn. 45:03.20 Sayre darling Yep yep, and that isn't going to work so well for you if you want to live a happy life if you want to have a great place to work if you want to make it a great place to work for your employees. So it is a part of our Dna. Um, of not liking change at an unprecedented time of change in history. 45:27.49 bizzyweb I to to get back to my earlier comment about being right or being successful I think that the people who need to be right are often often the most lonely because they aren't working with people. 45:38.00 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You. 45:40.69 Sayre darling And they are feeling very safe when they don't realize they're sitting atop a very small branch in a very high tree. This is not the time where you want to risk thinking you are right all by yourself. 45:49.54 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Me is. 46:00.63 Sayre darling There is no right and it has to be socialized so people understand the context around the change. Why the change is important the value of change in our culture and the necessity of it. 46:18.50 bizzyweb Love it. So What can ah if organizations are knowing that a change in is is inevitable. What are some tips you can give people to prep prepare. Accordingly sort of like disaster preparation. How Ah? what?? What's the what's the plywood and toilet paper purchases for for change. 46:35.17 Sayre darling Well for plywood I would success pause for Plywood I would suggest that from the leadership all the way through the organization you ask people to prioritize to free up. X amount of time and resources because a large change is being planned. Okay, not everything can be a priority at the same level all at the same time something will suffer then you have to move slow. In order to get everyone aligned and on board with the change so that when you are going through the process you can move rather quickly if you don't do that The opposite will occur the change will stall out and it will be a disaster um the the toilet paper. Ah. Would be um, normalizing change inside of the organization letting people know that you know we're going to have some things that are going to Change. We don't know all the answers. It's okay, not to have all the answers or have the right Answers. What is better is to. Be able to have um places where you can provide feedback. Um, ask really challenging questions become trained in having difficult conversations. There's your plywood and toilet paper. 48:06.95 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb And so what I'm hearing Sarah is Alon Musk probably should have hired you before he bought Twitter and institute and so many changes and ah for for folks that are listening because we're probably going to be publishing this in 2023 Twitter was a thing. 48:22.21 bizzyweb So. 48:23.20 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb In 2022 that was still alive. Um, ah only semi joking because of wow what a dumpster fire. But if you so at at this? Yeah well I'll I'll do like super and then Sarah Sarah tell us where where he's going wrong. But. 48:31.80 bizzyweb What's what's going on there. Do you can you help can you help Unravel that a little. 48:43.94 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah, Alan as of our taping right now in Midnovember of 2022 um, he just essentially fired 90% of his employees now and the last round happened when he essentially sent an email to everyone that was left. Saying you need to click this link in order to say that you want to stay working with us and by clicking this link. You are saying that you're going to work longer hours and come into the office and you agree that there's no overtime and that you're just going to suck it up and do what's right. Or if you don't click that you get three months of severance. Um, enjoy your vacation and get out by tomorrow. So that's probably a good example of a bad badly led change correct what what might you have done differently for this Sarah. Good. 49:37.55 Sayre darling Wow. Well the unusual pause um the unusual aspect about Elon Musk taking over Twitter is. 49:54.96 Sayre darling How elon thinks he is the inventor. Ah the Uber smart individual who thinks that the way they think about things is the way the world leads to think about things and his inventiveness. 50:07.33 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb You. 50:13.57 Sayre darling Complicated this approach that he used to changing Twitter and he did not implement anything that you would normally implement in change and I would ask him is that because you see that. It can operate entirely differently than it is now question number 2 what do you want Twitter to be in the world and who is going to support that and should the conversation. Go beyond. Those 15 seconds um then I would talk about how do you want to approach that in terms of aligning what's going on in the world. How Twitter needs to change what your vision is and engaging the employees. 51:06.97 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Yeah I think that's probably 1 of the key things that he hasn't done at least from an outside perspective. He's not shared any vision. He's just come in and started acting like a bull in a China shop and and throwing everything out for the sake of making change I mean he. He's not ah, he's not afraid of change that's for sure. Um, but he's. 51:29.53 bizzyweb I think he's I'm sorry to interrupt you Dave I think he's sharing a vision but it's one that nobody can really nobody really gets you know he talked about wanting Twitter to be this ah open source free speech haven. 51:36.48 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, perhaps yeah. 51:43.83 bizzyweb And he's banning people left and right for making fun of him and so yeah, you know, admirable or not he hasn't I He has an idea. It's just how he's going about trying to do It is. 51:44.50 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Um, yeah, right. 51:46.93 Sayre darling Now. 51:58.44 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Here. 52:01.39 bizzyweb I don't know I don't get as you say back in back and back in the dee do Twitter was a thing but it it's who knows what? ah ah it'll it'll be like next week there's certainly some schadenfreude involved with it that feel bad for all those people because it it is a good company and it. 52:06.40 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Oh. 52:12.36 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Phrase. 52:19.50 bizzyweb There is There is a possibility for it to change. There's a possibility to monetize it but not like this. 52:25.80 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Right. 52:25.74 Sayre darling But my question would be why wouldn't you just start a brand new company. That's different from Twitter if that's the approach you're going to use you know if if you're a great competitor for Twitter and Twitter ends up collapsing that's something else. But why would you be so destructive and really muddy the situation so much that you might not be able to recover from it before creating something new. 52:48.90 bizzyweb Fabric. 52:57.31 bizzyweb Well I think we'll let ah we'll let Elon get the last word on our change management podcast. You guys know how to make a small fortune in social media. Yeah. 53:06.88 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb I I know I saw the tweet I'll let you finish it though. 53:12.23 bizzyweb It's by starting with a large one. So Sarah darling like thank you for joining us how can people find you if they need help with change much like Dave and I constantly they need our help need your help. 53:16.69 Sayre darling Ah. 53:23.55 Sayre darling You you can find me on Linkedin I can assure you. There's no one else with my name on Linkedin um, you can also find me at sayredarling.com is my website. 53:35.84 bizzyweb And her first name is spelled s a y r e sayer darling dot com sayer. Thanks so much and god I hope I don't need any of this and my my day just kind of smooths along. 53:47.25 Sayre darling Well when you do you know where to find me and it's been my incredible pleasure talking with you today. All right. 53:53.49 Dave Meyer_ BizzyWeb Thank you Sarah. 53:55.42 bizzyweb We'll see you next time.